[lumberjim]

Originally posted by ladysycamore


With that being the case, then maybe society should focus on trying to educate people to not procreate so quickly (or even at all) if the home isn't as stable as it can possibly be.

Lsyc,

who would be deciding when a home is stable enough? I agree that the overpopulation of underprivelaged portions of our society is troubling, and I understand that you do not want kids for yourself. You say it all the time. I wonder, though, how much of that is brought about by your unfortunate health situation and the fact that childbirth, for you, may not be an option. I repeatedly get the sense that you actually DO want kids, and are telling yourself that you CHOOSE not to. I'm sorry to be so direct about this, but this is not the first time this has occured to me, and i thought I should ask you.
feel free to ignore me, i mean no offense, but CAN you have kids if you change your mind?

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Troubleshooter
Yeah, genetics is ugly, even if only from the perspective of how many things can go wrong.

Ah well, best to be childfree. No genetics, no problem! :D

*only half-joking folks...well, maybe...*

[Lady Sidhe]

Here's something interesting I found. It's from Confessions, by St. Augustine, and concerns sin. Replace the word sin with the word crime, and it describes exactly the process that profilers have found is used by the criminal. Comments in parentheses refer to the criminal, non-parentheticals are from St. Augustine:

1. The mind conceives of an action... (fantasizing, for the criminal)

2. ...which is referred to the senses (perhaps videotaping or photographing possible victims)

3. The individual considers the possible consequences ("What I'm doing is illegal, and blah, blah, blah)

4. He decides to commit the sin (crime) ("It may not work, but I want to try it anyway")

5. He then rationalizes the act. ("I did this because I was abused as a kid")




Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Here are some more reasons I support the dp. Again, gleaned from observations made by profilers:


"The sexual offender is never fully inactive. He may not be acting out against a specific victim, but he will be making plans, selecting new targets, acting out against other victims, or gathering materials. He is never dormant."

SOCIOPATHS do not feel remorse or shame, guilt or appropriate fear. THEY DO NOT LEARN FROM PUNISHMENT. They are easily bored. They like excitement. They find it difficult to delay gratification, no matter where their self-interest may lie. They are chronic liars, even when they have no need or reason to lie. They have no understanding of, or concern for, the harm they cause others. The only concern they have is for their own gratification.

Billy Lee Chad, a rapist, sexual sadist, and murderer, wrote a manuscript while in jail called "Dark Secrets." In this manuscript, he blames the criminal justice system for making him a sexual predator, but contradicts this claim when he says of his crimes, "I never had experienced such sexual pleasure." he also said, "I knew what I had done was wrong, but where was [sic] the feelings of guilt that were supposed to accompany such a deed? What was it that caused me to feel such elation? What was it that allowed me to take another human's life with no feeling of remorse?"
When describing an attack he made on his pregnant wife when she refused him sex, he said, "The fear she showed would fire me even more. I couldn't see her face, just those eyes, afraid and pleading. I felt myself slipping into the feeling of supremacy again. I wanted to kill." Describing his second rape-murder, he said, "she was writhing in pain, and I loved it. I was now combining my sexual high of rape and my power high of fear to make a total sum that is beyond explaining. I was alive for the sole purpose of causing pain and receiving sexual gratification. I have never experienced a high like this from any drug."
He described laughing on the way home in his car. Neither afraid nor sorry for committing the brutal act, he said he'd never felt more satisfied in his life, like a "supreme ruler." He even said that he relived the rape-murder in a wet dream that night.
Commenting on another murder, one that he masturbated in the midst of, he said, after he had "sanitized" the apartment of forensic evidence, that "I started to giggle as I walked away from the place. By the time I got to the corner, I was laughing hysterically. I calmed myself, and still smiling, hailed a cab."


According to profilers, peeping, obscene calls, and exposure, considered nusiance offenses, can be precursors to violent behavior.

Also according to profilers, the two types of sexual offenders with the most characteristics in common are sexual sadists and pedophiles.

--Both are ritualistic sexual criminals, with highly developed fantasy lives. They tend to carry out their crimes according to a script.

--Both are highly motivated (their crimes give them deep satisfaction) and they invest great amounts of time, money, and energy to their criminal behavior.

--Neither experiences remorse or guilt. The sexual sadist believes that his victims deserve to suffer, and the pedophile doesn't believe that he's caused harm to the child.

--Both are highly practiced at rationalizing their behavior and consequently are poorly motivated to change.

--Both recognize that society abhors them, and they take steps to study their deviant desires and behaviors to better understand them and evade arrest.

--Both collect theme-oriented pornography and/or erotica that serves to compliment their preexisting fantasies.

--They possess average or better-than-average intelligence and social skills. They mesh well in society.

--Both are likely to commit incest with their natural children and will molest stepchildren or other minor relatives.

--They record their criminal sexual acts. This provides them with means of reliving and improving on their criminal acts.

--Their rate of recidivism is much greater than for other sexual offenders. They tend to be model prisoners and consequently are released more quickly and, having learned nothing from their punishment, quickly begin practicing sexual deviance again.

--Both are highly narcissistic.

--Both have low threshold for sexual boredom and involve their victims in progressively offensive and demeaning behaviors.

--Most sexual criminals slow down with age. There is no known burn out age for these two offenders. Unless stopped, such men will offend well into their sixties or seventies.

--They have greater numbers of victims than other sexual offenders. Once these men begin to act out criminally, they will assault until they are caught.

--They are predominately middle-class offenders.

--They are determined.



Scary.


Sidhe

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by lumberjim
Lsyc,
who would be deciding when a home is stable enough? I agree that the overpopulation of underprivelaged portions of our society is troubling, and I understand that you do not want kids for yourself. You say it all the time.

As far as who would decide...truthfully, I don't have an answer for that right now. However, as far as *what* will determine stable, then I would say the things that are obvious: excessive drug and alchohol abuse, violence in the home (against another person or witnessing abuse), mental, physical, emotional abuse, etc. As far as me stating my childfree status "all of the time"...ah, that may be a result of speaking with several "militant" childfree members on "alt.support.childfree". They can get a person amped up sometimes...;) My bad...

I wonder, though, how much of that is brought about by your unfortunate health situation and the fact that childbirth, for you, may not be an option. I repeatedly get the sense that you actually DO want kids, and are telling yourself that you CHOOSE not to. I'm sorry to be so direct about this, but this is not the first time this has occured to me, and i thought I should ask you.
feel free to ignore me, i mean no offense, but CAN you have kids if you change your mind?

Let me break some things down (you may get more than you bargained for): :p

1) I have never had an overwhelming desire to have kids...not even to be married. This would be the "main" reason, but I do have a few others.

As a young child, I didn't have dreams and fantasies about the man who would sweep me off of my feet, marry and have a family with (as society assumes all little girls do) and live happily ever after. I would hear various horror stories about pregnancy, birth, labor, etc. and truth be told: it turned me off completely about having kids. Everytime someone would even suggest that I have kids one day, I'd cringe and say, "no thanks" thinking of all of the various problems I might have being pregnant, and never mind the hours of labor and pain. I just saw an episode of "Starting Over" (http://www.startingovertv.com/index.html) today where a young gal gave birth and I was practically on the floor writhing everytime she shrieked in pain. And then, they gave her an epidural...not pretty. A big old needle in the back...nah, not for me (*maybe* if I had to for some other reason such as life saving surgery..maybe).

I've always said that one should have at least 4 things in place before considering starting a family: stable finances, relatively good health, time and patience. I had none of those when I was a teen, in my 20s, or now. As a teenager, I didn't want to find myself a possible single mother, relying on my parents to help me out, and struggling to support myself and my child (plus, I didn't want to give up my swanky lifestyle...that's sort of a joke, but I really didn't want to give up my youth to become a mother).

Marriage I'm more receptive to, but that also takes some planning, and I do have to weight the pros and cons of that as well.


2) My health situation does make it somewhat dangerous to have kids, but again, because the desire isn't there, there *is* no danger for me. Why have a kid if I have no desire to be a parent? I strongly feel this is where some people "fail" as parents, because they just "follow the script" (as some CF people say), and deep down they are not willing to actually be parents (but what would the family say???). Family and social pressure can be pretty strong to fight for some, but not for me. Thank goodness my parents aren't hounding me to be grandparents. Many people have kids for all the wrong reasons, and it shows many times in the parenting.

I *do* know of some who have kidney failure and have had kids...My mind boggles over this, because not only would it complicate the pregnancy, but to know that you may have possibly passed that along to the child...unless they did some genetic testing, and I highly doubt many people are even doing this, much less know about it. Kidney failure, diabetes and other things run in my family to some degree, so I sure wouldn't want any child of mine to live like I am right now...many aspects of it sucks ass royally (remember how much trouble I was having trying to walk around at the car convention? One of the sucky aspects...). However, my choice to not have kids came way before I discovered my kidneys failing, as I pointed out in point #1.


3) To answer you question: No. There is no changing my mind because of the reasons stated above. So no, I am not secretly harboring thoughts of having kids, but choosing to not have them because of my chronic illness. In fact, that just put the nail in the coffin about not having kids (not that the nail *really* needed to be hammered in more).

4) Having kids is not something I feel I "have" to do in order to be a well rounded, decent person. Some people have said that children makes them complete and so on, and that's swell..for them, but not for me (and Syc).

So actually, you were right in saying that childbirth may not be an option, but it was an option that I chose before I became ill.

Hope that cleared things up for you.
:D

PS: Didn't want to necessarily hijack the thread folks, but he asked. ;)

[Lady Sidhe]

This is in response to the racial and socioeconomic aspect of DP-worthy crimes. According to the FBI:


The vast majority of sexual sadists in the FBI study (these are the ones who turn into serial killers)--29 out of 30--were whites of european descent.

Blacks and Hispanics are statistically underrepresented, not only among sexual sadists, but among most classes of ritualistic serial criminals. Robert Ressler and John Douglas, in their serial killer survey, interviewed 36 murderers responsible for 118 deaths. Of these, 33 were white males. When Ann Burgess and Roy Hazelwood studied 41 serial rapists (responsible for 837 rapes and more than 400 attempted rapes) there were 36 whites and five blacks. In Hazelwood's study of twenty compliant wives and girlfriends of sexual sadists, 17 were white, 2 were hispanic, and only one was black. In his later study of 150 autoerotic fatalities, 139 of the victims were white and only 7 were black.


Notice how few individuals were responsible for a disproportionate number of crimes: 36 murderers responsible for 188 deaths, and 41 rapists responsible for 1,237 assaults!

A mere 77 people responsible for 1,425 life-destroying acts. These are people who will continue to offend until they're stopped. As they were recidivists, prison had apparantly not rehabilitated them. I'll bet a rope would rehabilitate them....

The white v. black deviant offender also have other differences:

Black rapists cross the racial line much more frequently than do white rapists, and tend to assault elderly women much more often.

As cases of black ritualistic sexual offenders came to Hazelwood's attention, he found that these offenders tended to come from middle-class or higher families. He believes that "as more blacks and hispanics move into the middle class, they will begin to display more of the ritualistic behaviors currently associated with white offenders."


So what this is saying is:

Most serial murderers and rapists will tend to be WHITE.

The HIGHER up on the socioeconomic ladder, the more minorities will engage in the serial, ritualistic types of sexual criminal behavior. So all this "poor" talk holds less water than it would first seem when it comes to serial sexual assault-murders.

Also, it has been found, in a study of 30 sexual sadists, that over half had no arrest record prior to the crimes for which they were imprisoned. (This means that they were probably slapped on the wrist for minor crimes such as peeping, flashing, or obscene phone calls since most sexual assaulters begin small and work their way up the violence ladder. Often these offenses are dropped, or happened during childhood, and the records were expunged or sealed, making it appear that the person had no previous instances of deviant behavior. This is why these offenses should not be taken lightly--they can indicate future behavior, and show previous bad behavior when the offender finally DOES harm someone)

According to Hazelwood, "The fact that some of the most heinous offenders operating in North America had no arrest history is a strong testament to their planning and intelligence."


These are the people we're taking care of, FOR THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. Remind me again why they deserve luxuries that many law-abiding citizens can't afford?? Remind me why they deserve the state's mercy when they didn't feel their victims deserved the same? Remind me why they deserve to live?

Being a human being didn't keep their victims alive, and therefore shouldn't be an excuse to keep them alive either, IMO.



Sidhe

[OnyxCougar]

Still another theory, recently advanced by so-called Evolutionary Psychologists, takes the radical view that rape is a natural biological phenomenon. To paraphrase one adherent, rape is an unfortunate but nonetheless adaptive strategy for passing on one's genes. In my view, this reasoning will go the way of the extra Y chromosome theory.


I just want to bring it up briefly here that this is just one of the reasons I don't buy into Evolutionary theory.

I am very PRO-personal responsibility. Many people (not all) that believe in the Evolutionary Theory are Humanists, that is, they believe they answer to no one, everything happened randomly, it was all astronomical chance that we're here anyway. Their actions don't matter.

"Animals do it, so it's ok."
"That's what my dad did, and his dad did. It's in my genes."

And I don't mean to beat a very dead horse about the CvE issue, and I'm not bringing Christianity into the argument at this point at all, I'm just saying that it's typical of people that want a scapegoat and not be responsible for themselves bring Evolution into it.

Other than that, preach on Sidhe...

[Lady Sidhe]

When it comes to evolution, I don't think that it can be used as an excuse for bad behavior. I mean hell, even a wolf will stop mid-attack when its opponent wolf shows submission. HUMANS don't do that. You show submission and a human criminal will beat the living shit out of you, then rape and kill you.

Animals seem to be more evolved than humans when it comes to stable societies.


Sidhe

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by OnyxCougar
I just want to bring it up briefly here that this is just one of the reasons I don't buy into Evolutionary theory.

And the one reason I'll take science over religion any day is that in time the bad ideas go out the window instead of us being stuck with them.

In theory...

[Troubleshooter]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Animals seem to be more evolved than humans when it comes to stable societies.

That's because they are less encumbered by intellect.

There are some people who have a real problem with sapience.

[Torrere]

Children exhibit the surrender reflex. I suspect that it's a society-reinforcing thing.

Would a wolf stop mid-attack if it's opponent were from a different pack? Would a wolf surrender if it was not part of the same society as it's opponent?

[DanaC]

I'm just saying that it's typical of people that want a scapegoat and not be responsible for themselves bring Evolution into it.

............because nobody ever abdicates responsibilty for their lives to God......Nobody ever claims God told them to do it, or it was God's will that prostitues should die.....Nobody ever uses religion as an excuse or rationale for killing. In my experience evolutionists consider themselves more responsible for their actions not less. We *know* there's nobody else but us to answer to.

[wolf]

Originally posted by DanaC


............because nobody ever abdicates responsibilty for their lives to God......Nobody ever claims God told them to do it, or it was God's will that prostitues should die.....Nobody ever uses religion as an excuse or rationale for killing.

Damn straight they do ... and have since there has been religion. Just look at the crusades. Or the suicide bombing a day in Israel.

"God told me to" is not as popular a defense as "some other dude did it" but it's there.

It's used as an excuse ... it's also a real, strongly held belief. I had a patient who killed his mother and father and damn near killed his brother (who escaped and called the cops) because his family had been replaced by demons and god told him to kill them all. He didn't keep this a secret from his family, btw ... he told them, flat out, "God is telling me to kill you."

It was his first break. His parents didn't believe him.

One of the rare genuine Not Guilty By Reason of Insanities.

[Catwoman]

Lady Sidhe: The only real answer I can give to that is the fact that the penalties for crimes are well-known. We have established punishments, agreed upon them, and codified them as law. The individual, as part of the society, accepts those laws, and when s/he violates one or more of those laws, s/he knows the penalty.

Agreed.

What we are talking about here is establishing a set of rules - a consensus - for society to abide by. In a democracy, this is ruled by the majority. But what if a majority is wrong?

Quote: Happy Monkey
So laws are self-justified by their existence? That logic is a bit circular.

Ideally, potential punishment should = deterrent. A more likely equation is:

Payoff - (Punishment + level of psychosis + desire for instant gratification) = oh fuck it I'll do the crime anyway.

Research shows that the penalty is not given rational consideration in crimes such as these. So how do we deter? Punishment, reparation, retaliation - these are futile. They do not compensate, they do not resolve. I suggest, and this is the basis of my argument, that not enough is known about the phenomena of murder. Until we understand its root causes, we cannot respond to it. Let us take the time at whatever economical cost to get this one right, and then abolish it forever. Idealist? Yes. Impossible? It was once deemed impossible that the world could be round, that there wasn't a god, and that the earth revolved around the sun.

[Lady Sidhe]

"Violent crimes committed by the severely disturbed tend to attract a disproportionate amount of attention from the press. In fact, the mentally ill are responsible for less than 3% of sexual crimes."

"Perhaps the most obvious (and most frightening) explanation of all is that some offenders commit crimes simply because they want to! They like it! And they have no regard for what the rest of society thinks."

--Roy Hazelwood (who has worked with violent serial criminals for twenty years)


SOCIOPATHS do not feel remorse or shame, guilt or appropriate fear. THEY DO NOT LEARN FROM PUNISHMENT. They are easily bored. They like excitement. They find it difficult to delay gratification, no matter where their self-interest may lie. They are chronic liars, even when they have no need or reason to lie. They have no understanding of, or concern for, the harm they cause others. The only concern they have is for their own gratification.



Catwoman: "Payoff - (Punishment + level of psychosis + desire for instant gratification) = oh fuck it I'll do the crime anyway.

Research shows that the penalty is not given rational consideration in crimes such as these...."


The level of psychosis isn't something that has to be placed in the equation all, or even MOST, of the time. Despite the nature of the crimes, these people aren't psychotic. A personality disorder is not insanity. Legal insanity and medical insanity are two different things. Being a sociopath does not mean you're insane, and it's not an excuse.

It's not my problem if they don't consider the consequences of their actions. That's just too bad for them if they get caught. And many serial criminals DO consider the consequences. Why else would they try to cover their tracks if not to prevent capture? Evasion indicates knowledge of right and wrong, and that knowledge means that they do not want to pay the consequences, and are taking steps to prevent it.

People who go around indulging in violent whims, and who cannot be rehabilitated (sociopaths), don't garner any sympathy for me. They enjoy what they do, and as long as they're free, they'll continue to do it. There's no point in warehousing them.

As was said before, if the justice system would treat minor offenses, such as window peeping, exposure, offensive, repetitive crank calling, and animal cruelty with more concern, we might be able to catch these guys before they graduate to killing. However, once these people have gratified their urge, they don't go back. How do you rehabilitate someone who cares only for his own desires, and thinks the rest of the world is there for him to use in order to fulfill those desires?


Sidhe

[Torrere]

And God said "Let there be rape"

[Catwoman]

It's not my problem if they don't consider the consequences of their actions.

BUT THAT IS EXACTLY YOUR PROBLEM! If a murderer possessed a true, rational and *sane* sense of consequence they would not kill. Isn't that the problem here? We do not want people to kill. We want murder not to exist. Can you see that far? Can you imagine the possibility?

You're not listening. I am not validating, excusing or justifying murder in any way. We are already agreed on that one. You don't need to keep telling me how wrong it is. You don't need to keep telling me how society shouldn't have to pay for or accommodate them, that they don't 'deserve' to live or that insanity is no excuse to kill.

I am trying to look for a way to progress. To take steps to ensure that, at some point, there will be no need for discussions like these. The dp is PROVEN ineffective as a deterrent. States that do not have the dp have LOWER murder rates. It serves no purpose. It is barbaric and futile. We need to collect and correlate social, environmental and physiological factors into some kind of profile to help us establish the CAUSE of violent crime and then treat the reason, not the symptom. And logistics, while important, should not present any barrier to something so fundamental.

Despite the nature of the crimes, these people aren't psychotic.

Can that statement possibly hold any truth?

Evasion indicates knowledge of right and wrong, and that knowledge means that they do not want to pay the consequences, and are taking steps to prevent it.

Yes, assuming these people are in a sane, logical and rational frame of mind (see above).

How do you rehabilitate someone who cares only for his own desires, and thinks the rest of the world is there for him to use in order to fulfill those desires?

If this is the case (and forgive my ignorance - but I happen to think the circumstances surrounding a murder are a little more complex than this), then rehabilitation is not the most important issue. I am sure there are cases where it will never be possible to reintroduce such an individual into society. But that doesn't mean we cannot learn from them. Aileen Wuornos was interviewed by a psychologist for 15 minutes before determining that she was sane, and was subsequently sentenced to death. Our criminal research facilities are horribly inept, both here and the USA. I keep reiterating that not enough is known and we should establish reason before dictating solution.

[depmats]

If they knowingly, willfully murder someone - not in self defense - kill them. Quickly, not after years on death row, wasting tax payers' money on their existence and their legal appeals. In a clearly unapologetic manner - end them.

If they are "insane" and they commit the same crime - end them. Why is "not being in the right frame of mind" an acceptable defense?

Maybe if the punishments were a little closer to "an eye for an eye" and were swiftly and strictly enforced, the dipshit down the street might think twice about committing a violent crime. Many violent crimes are committed by cowards who may be deterred by the knowledge that there are real and really painful consequences to their actions.

[Clodfobble]

Psychological studies have unequivocally shown that increased punishments are a very low deterrent, but increased chances of getting caught are a very high deterrent.

Think of it this way: would you rather gamble $100 with only a 10% chance of winning, or gamble $1000 with a 90% chance of winning?

The fact that you might lose $1000 is lost to your brain, doesn't matter if it's a hundred thousand. You look and say, "I have a 90% chance of winning! I'll do it!" whereas with the first option you say, "That sounds like a great way to get screwed out of $100. No thanks."

Human beings are risk-takers. It's all about what you think your chances are, not what the possible losses are.

Just tossin' that onto the fire.

[depmats]

Is it possible to carry that same point back to the risks/outweighing the benefits. If i do x, and am caught there is a 60% chance i will spend 10 years in prison vs. if i do x, and get caught i WILL be executed.

I don't know that you can prove a right or wrong view on this one. But I still fall on the side of extreme, swift, consistant penalty for crimes.

I do speed because the consequence is a piddly ticket
I don't drive while intoxicated because i don't like going to jail.

[Catwoman]

OK depmats. If I said to you - you are free to commit a murder. You can kill anyone you like. There will be no imposed punishment, jail sentence or other penalty. Go ahead.

What would you do?

[Clodfobble]

Is it possible to carry that same point back to the risks/outweighing the benefits. If i do x, and am caught there is a 60% chance i will spend 10 years in prison vs. if i do x, and get caught i WILL be executed.

No it isn't, you missed my point. What I am saying is that statistically the statement you made does NOT hold true for human psychology. Though it may make sense, it simply isn't what people respond to--the only statistic people psychologically respond to in any meaningful way is the chance they will get caught.

[depmats]

Originally posted by Catwoman
OK depmats. If I said to you - you are free to commit a murder. You can kill anyone you like. There will be no imposed punishment, jail sentence or other penalty. Go ahead.

What would you do?

Fair question - but I haven't run into a situation yet where I would really benefit yet from someone else's death at my hands. There have been people that I would have liked to cause physical harm - but in each case I looked at what the long-term consequence would be to me. Jail? there goes my career.

I know that my view of acceptable punishment wouldn't eliminate crime. I believe it would lower crime rates though. The dead cannot cause injury to another. SOMe people will be deterred by the guarantee of severe penalty. But we would definitely thin the heard of those who do commit violent crimes. Murder and rape top my list of crimes worthy of execution... But as people have pointed out elsewhere I am just a thug.

[Perry5]

Here in the fine state of Texas,U.S.A., the death penelty works just fine.

No convicted felon excecuted by the state of Texas has ever gone on to kill again.

[Happy Monkey]

What if they were reincarnated and killed again? If you keep them in prison for a couple decades, you put that off for a while!

[Perry5]

Iff a bull had calves you wouldn't need cows.


I did not believe in reincarnation the first couple of times i was here either.

[Undertoad]

Settle down, Beavis.

[MrKite]

Originally posted by Perry5
Here in the fine state of Texas,U.S.A., the death penelty works just fine.

No convicted felon excecuted by the state of Texas has ever gone on to kill again.

Rick Halperin, president of the Texas Coalition to Abolish the Death Penalty, said Texas once again is inviting the scorn and ridicule of human rights observers from throughout the United States and around the world. “We have a Court of Criminal Appeals that does not even recognize the right of death row inmates to effective legal counsel during habeas appeals,” Halperin said. “We have a parole board that does not take seriously its statutory responsibility to hold legitimate clemency hearings. We have a governor who is beginning to look like he might upstage his predecessor as the state’s executioner-in-chief. We have a flawed and broken execution system in Texas, and even more tragically, there is no political will or moral leadership from either party in the state to stop and critically examine what is happening here.” - http://www.ncadp.org/html/may7.html

Sounds like you people down in Texas have everything going right for them. Since the death penalty is a state controlled policy the national government is going to let them handle it how they want to. The national government cannot take a stance because they need to be re-elected. I believe that it is morally acceptable to take the life of someone who has taken someone elses, but I would rather have the system be flawless unlike it is today. Texas is a state that seems to be doing things the wrong way, while other states like Illinois are trying to use a more intelligible approach on the subject, but then again morals and values differ for every single person so an overall conclusion that will make everyone happy is infeasible.

[Perry5]

You are correct,there is no perfection in the Texas exsecution system,on the otherhand many convicted fellons sentenced to life in prison have gone on to kill again in prison.

(Nothing perfect about that either.)

[MrKite]

Originally posted by Perry5
You are correct,there is no perfection in the Texas exsecution system,on the otherhand many convicted fellons sentenced to life in prison have gone on to kill again in prison.

(Nothing perfect about that either.)

Well if they are killing people in prison, isn't that just making more room for different criminals to come in? :rolleyes:

[depmats]

Originally posted by Perry5
You are correct,there is no perfection in the Texas exsecution system,on the otherhand many convicted fellons sentenced to life in prison have gone on to kill again in prison.

(Nothing perfect about that either.)

So quit wasting time and wack 'em sooner. The good news is that if they kill someone in prison... I know it won't be me.

[lumberjim]

dude, don't tempt fate like that. :eek:

[MrKite]

Who believes in fate anyway? :confused:

[depmats]

Originally posted by lumberjim
dude, don't tempt fate like that. :eek:

Thanks for the warning, but if i end up there it is my own dumbass fault.

[Perry5]

Originally posted by depmats


So quit wasting time and wack 'em sooner. The good news is that if they kill someone in prison... I know it won't be me.

Perhaps not today,but who knows when some lawyer may decide to stick his finger up your ass and turn you inside out.

To the lawyer the words ill eagle represent nothing more than a sick bird and outragious fees.

[depmats]

Originally posted by Perry5


Perhaps not today,but who knows when some lawyer may decide to stick his finger up your ass and turn you inside out.

To the lawyer the words ill eagle represent nothing more than a sick bird and outragious fees.

If I keep my shit straight I won't have to deal with the bloodsuckers.

[Lady Sidhe]

Sidhe: Despite the nature of the crimes, these people aren't psychotic.

Catwoman: Can that statement possibly hold any truth?



Why is that so hard to believe? Why is it so hard to believe that people can be JUST that calculating? I don't believe that someone who commits murder for hire is insane. He knows what he's doing, and he has a good reason for doing it, as far as he's concerned.

I don't believe that a mother who drowns her children, to accomplish a specific purpose, is insane. She's just self-centered, and cares for no one other than herself.

I don't believe that an armed robber or rapist who kills the victim is insane. They also kill for a completely logical purpose: to leave no witnesses so that they will not get caught.

I don't understand why people feel the need to believe that anyone who commits a crime, especially a heinous crime, must not be sane. Sanity is not exclusive of crime, and the most dangerous of the criminals tend to be the logical, intelligent ones.



Sidhe:Evasion indicates knowledge of right and wrong, and that knowledge means that they do not want to pay the consequences, and are taking steps to prevent it.

Catwoman:Yes, assuming these people are in a sane, logical and rational frame of mind (see above).



Legal insanity, insanity as defined by law in reference to law, is: A defect or disease of mind that renders the individual incapable of knowing that what they were doing was wrong. That means that if they make attempts to evade capture, then they knew that the action was wrong, and are therefore sane.




Sidhe: How do you rehabilitate someone who cares only for his own desires, and thinks the rest of the world is there for him to use in order to fulfill those desires?

Catwoman: If this is the case (and forgive my ignorance - but I happen to think the circumstances surrounding a murder are a little more complex than this), then rehabilitation is not the most important issue. I am sure there are cases where it will never be possible to reintroduce such an individual into society. But that doesn't mean we cannot learn from them. Aileen Wuornos was interviewed by a psychologist for 15 minutes before determining that she was sane, and was subsequently sentenced to death. Our criminal research facilities are horribly inept, both here and the USA. I keep reiterating that not enough is known and we should establish reason before dictating solution.



Why don't we put more emphasis on helping the people we CAN help?
Personality disorders are not curable. That's the simple fact. One must WANT to be cured of a personality disorder, and since the engagement in the behavior satisfies something in the person with the disorder, they do not want to be "cured." Personality disorders are NOT considered insanity, under the law OR psychiatrically.

Wolf could probably tell you about those wonderful personality disorders. I'm sure she sees them more often than she'd like. And those are the more dangerous, I'd say, because they're calculating and devious in getting what they want.



Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by depmats


So quit wasting time and wack 'em sooner. The good news is that if they kill someone in prison... I know it won't be me.



*standing ovation* BRAVO! :rattat: :beer:

[ladysycamore]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Sidhe: Despite the nature of the crimes, these people aren't psychotic.

Catwoman: Can that statement possibly hold any truth?

Why is that so hard to believe? Why is it so hard to believe that people can be JUST that calculating? I don't believe that someone who commits murder for hire is insane. He knows what he's doing, and he has a good reason for doing it, as far as he's concerned.

Greed is a big motivater for committing crimes regarding money. Being psychotic means losing touch with reality. Those ppl certain haven't done that at all.

I don't believe that a mother who drowns her children, to accomplish a specific purpose, is insane. She's just self-centered, and cares for no one other than herself.

Well, in the case of Andrea Yates, wasn't she a paranoid schizophrenic? Susan Smith certainly was NOT insane, even though what she did would be considered something akin to insane by most people.

[wolf]

Originally posted by ladysycamore
Well, in the case of Andrea Yates, wasn't she a paranoid schizophrenic? Susan Smith certainly was NOT insane, even though what she did would be considered something akin to insane by most people.

I was going to point out the same thing ... two mothers, both of whom killed their children. Very different reasons and cases, though.

Andrea Yates ... crazy murderer. Report regarding Defense Psychiatrist Assessment (http://www.courttv.com/trials/yates/030702-b_ap.html)

Susan Smith ... manipulative, self-centered murderer

[Lady Sidhe]

In the mother example, I was thinking of Susan Smith. Didn't Andrea Yates suffer from postpartum depression?

And thinking about her...I dunno. I think that if someone methodically chases her children down, and drowns them one by one....at the very least, if she IS psychiatrically ill, then she should be sterilized, because she could do it again.

I know that might sound harsh, but I'm just more concerned about the kids than I am about the killers. There's no reason for her to be able to kill more children because some psychiatrist says she's "cured." When I worked in the psych ward, it was a revolving door of people who were supposedly "cured." They were always brought back for medical noncompliance.


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Reader's Digest, June 2004



There is a new DNA test that can determine a person's ancestry. Standard DNA tests can determine sex, but tell nothing about a person's appearance.

While prosecutors today routinely use DNA taken from a crime scene to convict an offender, the analysis does not tell police much about whom they should be looking for in the first place. Widely used tests today only reveal a person's sex, but that's changing. Using a huge database of of genetic information from people all over the world, scientists at Penn State University devised a test that looks for "markers" on DNA that give strong clues about a person's ancestry.

The test, known as DNA Witness, can determine whether a person is most likely European, African American, Asian or Native American (people of Hispanic heritage tend to have a mix of ethnic groups.) Crime researchers in Britain are currently working on a test that they hope will detect hair color and even facial characteristics.

Scientists at the University of Ottowa Heart Institute have a method for extracting DNA from the microscopic remnants of skin left behind when a person touches an object. The test can be performed in minutes at the crime scene. The process, which is not available yet, also works for blood, hair, saliva, or even a flake of dandruff.

Researchers are also perfecting ways to identify plant DNA, which would have many uses, including the ability to trace seized shipments of illegal drugs to a given distributor.
Forensic scientists are developing methods to identify animal DNA. One in three homes in the US contains a source of criminal evidence: a cat or dog. As pet lovers know, fur clings to clothing. In one celebrated case, police on Prince Edward Island, Canada, linked white hairs on a bloody jacket found near the scene of a murder to their prime suspect--who owned a cat named Snowball.

Police in Kirkland, Washington, were frustrated. They had a suspect in the murder of a 27-year-old Bible-studies student: her neighbor, Eric H. Hayden. They also had a bed sheet with a bloody hand print. But the pattern on the fabric caused the finger- and palm prints to be unclear, making it impossible to match them to Hayden's hand. Enter Eric Berg, a forensic field supervisor with the police department in nearby Tacoma. Berg took digital photos of the prints and, using a computer program, filtered out the background "noise," producing clear prints that helped convict Hayden, who is now serving 26 years in prison.

Looking for fingerprints remains an essential part of any crime-scene investigation. However, criminals rarely leave behind pristine impressions. Berg's innovative technique, which is now available in police departments in the form of software called More Hits, enables police to read smudged or partial prints.

There is also an FBI-run database called CODIS (Combined DNA Index System), which is a network that lets Federal, State, and Local crime labs exchange and compare DNA electronically. The genetic information in question merely has to be plugged into the system. Using this system, Kansas City police were able to trace the murder ofr a 39-year-old woman (in 2000) to a paroled rapist from Arkansas named Wayne Dumond, who is now serving a life sentence for the murder.

Using computers, scientists at the Heinz School at Carnegie Mellon University in Pittsburg tracked minor and major crimes for more than a decade in two cities (Rochester, NY, and Pittsburg, PA). After running extensive statistical analyses, the scientists discovered that an uptick in minor crimes such as vandalism usuallly precedes, by about a month, more serious property crimes, such as burglary and larceny.

When the researchers road-tested their program, they were able to predict crimes with at least 80% accuracy. What's more, they could narrow down where the crime would take place to an area as small as an individual police beat--about one square mile. By the end of this year, the researchers hope to begin distributing the software to precincts across the country.
While criminals often seem to strike in a random fashion, statistical analyses of crime locations can disclose patterns. That's useful when police are hunting for serial criminals, says Texas State University criminologist Kim Rossmo, who created a concept called Geographic Profiling. Rossmo notes that criminals tend to commit crimes close to home--but not too close ("comfort zone", in profiling terminology). He has developed software that analyzes an area where linked crimes have occured, then isolates a tiny section where the crook most likely lives. That allows police to focus on specific suspects. In one case, police in Midland, Ontario, used Geographic Profiling to nab a prolific burglar. The system nearly drew a circle around the suspect's home.

Analytical scientist Peter Nunes, of the Forensic Science Center at Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory, part of the US Dept. of Energy, shrank a standard gas chromatographer-mass spectrometer (a bulky instrument, weighing between 200-250 lbs., used to identify organic compounds by vaporizing them and analyzing the resulting gas molecules.) However, transporting substances such as chemical weapons, explosive residues, fire accelerants, and drugs--to crime labe takes time and can be dangerous; therefore, the new and improved GC-MS has been shrunk to a a portable 75 lbs. It is already on the market and is in limited use by the Los Angeles County Sheriff' Dept.



Now that's interesting.....



Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

A man in the crowd was acting strangely. Then, according to an article in the New York Times, he wheeled about and shoved Edgar Rivera, father of three, onto the tracks as the No 6 train screeched into Manhattan's 51st Street Station. The victim's legs were severed.

Police arrested Julio Perez, 43, a homeless man with schizophrenia and a long history of violence. The event, which occurred on April 28, 1999 was eerily similar to another subway attack in January. In that case, Andrew Goldstein, a 29-year old with schizophrenia considered by those who knew him as gentle but weird, pushed Kendra Webdale, who dreamed of being a writer, to her death in a subway station.

The subway attacks resulted in a public outcry that ended in an "assisted outpatient treatment" measure called "Kendra's Law". The legislation authorizes judges to issue orders requiring people to take their medicine, regularly undergo psychiatric treatment, or both. Failure to comply could result in commitment for up to 72 hours. Prior to Kendra's law, a psychiatric patient had to be considered dangerous to be forcibly committed.

Recent data on its effectiveness show 75% fewer people arrested, and there was a 44% decrease in harm to others and a 45% reduction in harm to self.


This is a New York law. Unfortunately, it hasn't been adopted anywhere else that I know of.


Sidhe

[wolf]

Pennsylvania has had a similar law since 1974. I don't know all of the details of Kendra's law, though.

PA has long term involuntary outpatient commitments. If a patient is not compliant with the specified treatment (most outpatient centers consider missing three appointments as noncompliance) the case management office can file a petition for evaluation for the need to be returned to a higher level of care (inpatient, in this case). Doc evaluatest the patient, patient goes to court, court either commits the patient or the patient goes free.

[Catwoman]

Catwoman reads through new posts and sighs. Has said everything she can on the subject. Agrees with sidhe and lady that many crimes are motivated by greed/self-interest but cannot condone or even bear the thought of killing another human being. Concludes that she at least does not have what it takes to kill, be it first-hand with a knife or gun, or third-hand, by condoning the death penalty.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by wolf
Pennsylvania has had a similar law since 1974. I don't know all of the details of Kendra's law, though.

PA has long term involuntary outpatient commitments. If a patient is not compliant with the specified treatment (most outpatient centers consider missing three appointments as noncompliance) the case management office can file a petition for evaluation for the need to be returned to a higher level of care (inpatient, in this case). Doc evaluatest the patient, patient goes to court, court either commits the patient or the patient goes free.



Well, with any luck, it'll spread. Not all mentally ill patients, despite what people think, are harmless eccentrics. I see nothing wrong with forcing medication compliance on people who need it to keep from flipping out and possibly killing someone. I don't care if it's part of their delusion and they aren't doing it maliciously. It doesn't change the danger and it doesn't excuse it.

Here in Louisiana, there's nothing of the sort. It tends to go like this:

Patients are either indigent or committed by the courts, which ends up being the same thing--they get medicaid, and when it runs out, hey, they're cured! It's a MIRACLE!

And then we see them back in about two weeks for being dangerous because they refuse to take their meds....*sigh*


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Remember how I brought up trying teenagers as adults for violent crimes such as rape and murder? A&E recently aired a program entitled "Teen Thrill Killers." Here are some of the kids they interviewed.


Fact: In the last 15 years, the incidences of teens killing strangers has doubled


Jason Koskovitch, 18, and cousin Jason Vreeland lured two pizza delivery men to an abandoned house and ambushed them when they arrived, shooting them point-blank while they were in the car. Neither boy had prior records, and Koskovitch said he "always wanted to know what it felt like to kill." They celebrated afterward.

he also said "I had no remorse because I didn't know them. When I don't know them, I don't care."


"The Lords of Chaos." Derek Shields, honor student; Christopher Black, honor student; Pete Magnati, genius IQ; Kevin Foster, 19. leader of the group.

17-day crime spree that included killing animals by burning them to death, theft, vandalism, armed robbery, car theft (Foster murdered the owner of the car), arson, and firebombs.

Chris Black suggested killing a music teacher who'd threatened to turn them in. Shields protested, because he knew the teacher and liked him. Foster planned the shooting, playing on the familiarity of the instructsor, Mark Schwebes (sp), with Derek, having Derek knock on his door. The teacher was murdered on his own doorstep with a 12-gauge shotgun by Foster. Afterwards, Foster bragged about how cool it was to "see [the teacher's] face blown off." to a friend, who reported him to the police and led to the arrests. Chris, Derek, and Pete pled guilty and testified against Foster. Foster received the death penalty, Chris and Derek received life, and Pete received 37 years.


Leopold and Loeb- both had genius IQ's and both were rich.
They lured a child into their car, killed him with a chisel, and stuffed his body in a drainpipe. They had no remorse for their act.


John McNeil, Dale Stewart, and Dan Angus (leader), murdered a bicyclist, Tony Batista. They drove around looking for a target; said they wanted to "draw first blood," They killed him for sport, shot at point-blank range in Aug 2000.


"Wilding"
Tacoma, WA.: a gang of 8 kids responsible for over 15 attacks, and planned the murder of 30-year-old Eric Tabes. In addition to over 20 blows to the head, one of the 11-year-old members of the gang bragged about kneeing Tabes 28 times in the face.


Rod Matthews, age 14: One of the first juveniles to be tried as an adult. Lured 14-year-old Shawn Duillette into the woods, and beat him over the head with a baseball bat from behind. Shawn's hands were still in his pockets when he was found. Rod bragged to his friends and led them to the corpse. Rod had told others of the planned murder, and said, "I've been wanting to kill people I hate, and set fires." He said that he wanted to know what it would be like to kill someone, and that he didn't think that Shawn would be missed. He showed no remorse, and was convicted of 2nd degree murder and sentenced to 15 years.

Todd Rizzo, 18: Waterbury Conn. said he "wanted to be famous.", and would preface statements with, "one day, when I'm a serial killer..." Prior to the murder, he rented a video called Paradise Lost, a documentary about child killings. In Sept 97, 13-year-old Stan Edwards was riding by Rizzo's house on his bike. Rizzo befriended him and lured him into the back yard, where he bludgeoned the boy to death with a 3 lb sledgehammer.

He said he wanted to know what it felt like to kill someone, and "I decided I wanted to try to kill him, for no good reason." According to Rizzo's brother, Rizzo wanted to be as famous as Jeffrey Dahmer, whom he idolized.

According to quoted psychologists: "They know right from wrong, but just don't care."

And from a family member of one of the victims: "he's not a juvenile, he's a murderer; You can't be given a conscience."

That hits it on the head. You can't give someone a conscience.

One psychologist said that these kids can't see the consequences of their actions so far ahead. In other words, they know the person will die, but don't consider the effects on the families and friends involved. However, do you honestly believe that it would stop them if they DID? It doesn't stop adults, if THEY consider it at all either.

Research has shown that teenagers experience an increase in self-control and impulse control between the ages of 13-16. Research on the brains of teen thrill killers shows also that there is overactivity in the singulogyrus, which is involved in obsessive thoughts, and overactivity in the prefrontal lobe, which is involved in planning, judgement, and impulse control; personality traits include egocentrism, lack of empathy and lack of remorse and self-control.

Why is it, then, that they seem to have no problem in planning the murders in such a way as to evade capture for so long? If the impulse control is so bad, how is it that they have no problems waiting to appease those impulses until there are no witnesses?

[wolf]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Research has shown that teenagers experience an increase in self-control and impulse control between the ages of 13-16. Research on the brains of teen thrill killers shows also that there is overactivity in the singulogyrus, which is involved in obsessive thoughts, and overactivity in the prefrontal lobe, which is involved in planning, judgement, and impulse control; personality traits include egocentrism, lack of empathy and lack of remorse and self-control.


All of this science fails to take into account one simple concept: There is evil in the world.

[DanaC]

From the BBC news site

Scientists have discovered that the brain's centre of reasoning is among the last areas to mature. The finding, by a team at the US National Institute of Mental Health, may help to explain why teenagers often seem to be so unreasonable.

Researchers used imaging techniques to show "higher order" brain areas do not develop fully until young adulthood.
The research is published in the journal Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences.

The decade-long study used magnetic resonance imaging to follow the development of the brains of 13 health children every two years as they grew up.
The aim was to get a better picture of how the brain develops so that it would be easily to pin down abnormalities that occur in conditions such as schizophrenia.

The researchers found that grey matter - the working tissue of the brain's cortex - diminishes in a back-to-front wave over time.

They believe this is a key part of the maturation process, whereby unused and unneeded connections between brain cells are gradually destroyed.

They found the first areas to mature were those with the most basic functions, such as processing the senses and movement.

Next came areas, such as the parietal lobes, involved in spatial orientation and language.

Last to mature were areas such as the prefrontal cortex with more advanced functions such as integrating information from the senses and reasoning.

The sequence of maturation seen by the researchers in the developing brain roughly parallels the evolution of the brain from lower order mammals to the highly complex organ that is found in man.

For instance, the prefrontal cortex emerged late in evolution and is among the last to mature.

Researcher Dr Judith Rapoport told BBC News Online: "Maturation starts with more basic facilities such as vision and hearing and then goes on to the ability to integrate and organise many inputs, to weigh consequences of behaviours and to relate to others.

"It is a smart sequence in terms of evolution and individual development."
It has long been thought that the brain produces too much grey matter during the first 18 months of life, and that this is followed by a steady decline as unused circuitry is discarded.

Several years ago the NIMH team discovered a second wave of grey matter over-production just prior to puberty, followed by a second bout of "use-it-or-lose-it" pruning during the teen years.

In a previous study, the same team also found that teenagers who became psychotic prior to puberty lost four times the normal amount of grey matter in their frontal lobes.

This, they argued, suggested that childhood onset schizophrenia may be due to an exaggeration of the normal maturation process, possibly leading to the destruction of potentially useful brain circuits.

By contrast, autism has been associated with an increase, rather than the normal decrease, in grey matter.



This is why children shouldnt be held accountable in the same way adults are. Just because they know right from wrong doesnt mean they understand that in the same way we do. Their cortex is not fully formed until they reach the age of 16/17. They do not have the same ability to conceptualise that we have as adults.

[sycamore]

I was just listening to coverage of the Terry Nichols state trial in Oklahoma. The state of Oklahoma spent $5 million to try Nichols in state court, and there's no guarantee that he'll be given the death penalty.

I have no stake in this at all, but spending $5 million to try and give a guy the death penalty when he's already in prison for life seems like a waste of money to me.

[OnyxCougar]

The sequence of maturation seen by the researchers in the developing brain roughly parallels the evolution of the brain from lower order mammals to the highly complex organ that is found in man.

Again, a theory used as fact. See how they do it? Take that theory out of science and you've got purer science. Research without the bult in assumptions.

[Happy Monkey]

You don't drop a theory from science if a few religions disagree with it.

[OnyxCougar]

Who said anything about religion?

[Happy Monkey]

Religion is the only reason evolution is considered controversial.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by DanaC
From the BBC news site



This is why children shouldnt be held accountable in the same way adults are. Just because they know right from wrong doesnt mean they understand that in the same way we do. Their cortex is not fully formed until they reach the age of 16/17. They do not have the same ability to conceptualise that we have as adults.



They seem to have enough ability to wait until there's no one around to catch them, though, don't they?


Sidhe

[Happy Monkey]

That's the first thing a kid learns - it's better not to be caught. Just ask Ralphie in A Christmas Story.

[DanaC]

Lady Sidhe, the point is that they both understand *and* dont understand their actions. They understand that something is right or wrong, they understand to a degree the consequences of their actions, but their relationship with that information is fundamentally different to an adults. They cannot have the same degree of understanding their brains simply arent ready for it.

[xoxoxoBruce]

I knew at a very young age, if I got caught, I got my ass kicked. :p

[OnyxCougar]

Keep in mind this was one study, not a guaranteed, bonafide concrete rule. It's a theory.

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by DanaC
Lady Sidhe, the point is that they both understand *and* dont understand their actions. They understand that something is right or wrong, they understand to a degree the consequences of their actions, but their relationship with that information is fundamentally different to an adults. They cannot have the same degree of understanding their brains simply arent ready for it.



I understand what you're saying, but in the long run, it doesn't really make a difference whether or not they understand the long-term ramifications of their acts. It's enough that they know it's wrong, forbidden, or illegal, and that they choose to do it anyway.

I seriously doubt that adult criminals who commit violent acts give a thought to how it will affect the families of their victims, and if they do, I doubt they CARE. Therefore, understanding that the families will suffer or not is not a mitigating factor, IMO.

Juvenile life is bullshit. If you're 17, four years for murder just teaches you that you can get away with it, especially when your juvenile record is sealed and can't be used against you if you murder again--so juries can't know that you're a recidivist and sentence you accordingly. Besides, most juvenile delinquents know they're going to get a slap on the wrist BECAUSE they're juveniles, so there's no deterrent.

A teenager is not stupid. They know the difference between right and wrong, and they know that murder is illegal. Yet more and more often, we're confronted with violent and/or murderous teenagers who "wanted to know what it felt like to kill," and we treat them with kid gloves because they're "children." A 15-, 16-, 17-, or 18-year-old is not a child. If you're old enough to drive, to vote, or to join the military, you're old enough to be expected to obey the rules just like everyone else, and to pay the consequences like everyone else.

You know how parents tell little kids, "because I said so," to explain some rules? Well, the same should go for teenagers. "Because the law says so, and until the law is changed, you obey it or suffer the consequenses."

If you're old enough to choose to break the law, you're old enough to pay the consequences for it.

That's just how I feel. I'm sick of all these murderers who have a history of violent behavior going back to "childhood," that has never been dealt with. We have to start nipping it in the bud NOW. The safety of the society should take precedence.


Sidhe

[MrKite]

Originally posted by xoxoxoBruce
I knew at a very young age, if I got caught, I got my ass kicked. :p

And it worked to keep you straight. I know my ass was grass if I did anything wrong, so I kept straight. Nowadays when a kid does wrong the parent will nuture the little bastard and find out whose fault it "really" was. Kids shouldn't be stuck up for, they are deceitful, slimey, conniving, smelly little demons and should be dealt with appropriately.

[DanaC]

Four years is a long time to a 17 year old. Hell look how long high school seemed :P

[wolf]

Even if your statement is intended in jest, I have to respond ...

It's s blink of an eye for the dead victim, and their family.

[DanaC]

At 17 I was a different character altogether from the character I was at 21

[Clodfobble]

Ah, but did you murder someone at 17, and then at 21 say "Why, that was a foolish thing to do, and I can't even understand why I did it?"

Everyone changes between those ages, the question is the degree of change. Even if the 17-year-old murderer learns the folly of his ways, and at 21 is only robbing convenience stores for the money instead of the thrill of killing, that's not enough improvement.

[DanaC]

I didnt murder anyone no. But I did things, made mistakes and later could not get a handle on where the fuck my head had been at that time.

[Clodfobble]

What sort of mistakes?

[Lady Sidhe]

Child Slasher (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3366765/detail.html)


See, it's not just American methods of raising kids that's at fault. I think everyone knows the hive mentality (not meant to be an insult--just referring to the "many are more important than the individual" way of thinking) in Asia, and yet...


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Child Decapitations (http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/3366642/detail.html)


*is so disgusted she can't even think of anything to say right now*

[Lady Sidhe]

'TV intoxicated' killer leaves country
Ronny Zamora, known as the "TV intoxicated" killer of an
83-year-old woman, was deported Wednesday after his release
from a Miami Beach prison. Zamora, who had claimed
"television intoxication'' caused him to kill his neighbor,
Elinor Haggart, 27 years ago is being sent back to his
native Costa Rica, the Miami Herald reported. Zamora has a
job waiting for him in his country. The release agreement
with the Florida Parole Commission says he will be under
supervision for the rest of his life. "He has served his
debt to this community for what he did," said George Yoss,
Zamora's attorney for the past four years. "He has shown
remorse for the longest time." Zamora was 15 when he and
an accomplice shot Haggart and fled to Orlando with her
money. During his trial, the first to be televised, his
lawyer said TV violence had driven the boy to kill Haggart
as he robbed her, the report said. The judge did not
allow the defense and Zamora was convicted. His accomplice,
Darrell Agrella, struck a plea deal and was released from
prison in 1986.



TV intoxication, my ASS....letting this guy go reminds me of the doctor who drugged his wife, tortured her, and skinned her alive. She lived for months in the hospital, in extreme pain, before she died. He went to prison for a little while, until they put him on a plane and sent him out of the country (he got "life" from the jury, on the understanding that the ENTIRE parole board would have to sit to hear his parole requests. Not even half the board was there when they voted to send him out of the country.


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Just recently in Hammond, Ronnie Young poured gasoline on his girlfriend Georgia Warford, and set her on fire--he did the same to her house and her car, but I'm more interested in what he did to her. She had 3rd-degree burns over 50% of her body. She is recovering slowly after running down the street and collapsing in front of a convenience store at the end of that street. The first thing she told police was that Ronnie Young did it.

He was caught five hours later. He'd run into the woods and down the road to his daughter's house after he committed the crime.

Attempted murder by immolation. He should die the same way.


Sidhe

[mizchulita]

Horrendous stuff. I do not believe in state sanctioned killing however. It gives the government too much damn power. When some of this stuff happens, I think that the victims family should get their own justice, if that is what they want, and the police can turn their heads the other way. One less scumbag murder to investigate.

[Lady Sidhe]

----------- Man Who Killed Wife Gets Four Months -----------

FORT WORTH, Texas - A man convicted of shooting his wife, then
returning to finish her off when he found he had more bullets,
was sentenced on Friday to four months in jail after a jury
recommended probation. Jurors, who spent more than 21 hours
over three days deliberating the punishment, called the
decision difficult and emotional but said they believed
Watkins acted out of "sudden passion." In a confession used
as evidence in his trial, Watkins admitted that he shot his
wife Nancy and then her lover, Keith Fontenot, after finding
them at his home. Watkins chased Fontenot out of the house
and tried to shoot him in the head, but the gun did not go
off. Watkins said he drove away, thinking he was out of
bullets, then realized his gun had only misfired and that he
had more rounds. He then drove back to the house, where he
shot his wife to death while she talked to a 911 dispatcher.



Ok--maybe the first was a crime of passion, ie, attempted manslaughter...but the second? That was first-degree murder--premeditated. And he gets FOUR months?

Since when is being cheated on an excuse for murder?


Sidhe

[Happy Monkey]

Since the beginning of recorded history.

Not that I think it still should be. Four months is too little, even if it were a crime of passion.

[lumberjim]

well, if she was really enjoying it? maybe he came in and she was on top?

[Lady Sidhe]

Then he was a suckass shot. That in itself should be a crime in Texas....:D

[lookout123]

if he was a better shot he should have been able to get them both with only one shot. then he could have said he tried to fire a warning shot but something happened...

[Lady Sidhe]

Does "Life" really mean "Life?" (http://ichuddersfield.icnetwork.co.uk/0100news/0100localnews/tm_objectid=14314146&method=full&siteid=50060&headline=murder-appeal-bid-to-test--life--ruling-name_page.html)

Police doctor convicted of drugging and raping girls (http://www.sky.com/skynews/article/0,,30100-1138719,00.html)

[Happy Monkey]

No, "Life W/O Parole" means "Life".

[Lady Sidhe]

Then why call it "life" in the first place? Why not, "imprisonment until we decide you've been in there long enough?"

[Lady Sidhe]

I don't know if this technically belongs here, but...damn....:haha:


BILLINGS, Montana - A man after spending two years in prison
for bank robbery filed an appeal for wrongful imprisonment.
He claimed innocence even though his partner in crime clearly
identified him. He had a unique defense which proved fatal to
his cause. Transcripts of the appeal revealed a clever, if
unconvincing argument. He thought that the tellers could not
have possibly identified him correctly. Among his more
unforgettable quotes were, "How could the people in the bank
have identified me? I had a mask on when I did the job." His
appeal was denied.

[Happy Monkey]

"Life" means they can keep you there forever, if you show no improvement. "Life without parole" means they have to keep you there, regardless of behavior.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Sidhe, you spend entitely to much time and effort researching/reading these articles. It'll give you a warped view of the world.:)

[Lady Sidhe]

Well, ya gotta have a hobby, ya know.

I went to school on a criminal psych/cj track because I wanted to be a profiler....didn't work out, but I still can't help myself....so I figure, why fight it? :D

[Catwoman]

Keep going Sid - gives us something to talk about, and often a point of contention - without which things would be oh so boring. :)

[Lady Sidhe]

He admitted it, and there's a witness... (http://www.freep.com/news/mich/date16_20040616.htm)

Ok, here's one...

The guy has admitted to killing 13 women, and the murder for which he's being charged has a WITNESS.



IN COURT: November trial set for Watts in 1979 killing

June 16, 2004

Confessed serial killer Coral Watts will go on trial in November for the 25-year-old murder of a Ferndale woman.

Watts, 50, was dressed in orange-and-white-striped jail garb Tuesday, surrounded by deputies during his arraignment in Oakland County Circuit Court on a first-degree murder charge. Judge Richard Kuhn entered a not-guilty plea for Watts, standard procedure in criminal hearings, and set a Nov. 8 trial date.

Watts, who has admitted to killing 13 women, is accused of stabbing Helen Dutcher, 36, a dozen times on a snowy December night in 1979. A witness testified at a hearing last month that he saw Watts slit Dutcher's throat.

Watts has been in a Texas prison for years under a deal he cut with prosecutors there in which he confessed to several slayings. In exchange, he was allowed to plead guilty to a burglary charge and received a 60-year sentence.

But a change in Texas law means Watts could be released as early as May 2006. Michigan prosecutors say he is linked to several killings in the state, including Dutcher's, and hope to keep him in prison for life.




And so WHAT'S the problem?? Personally, it pisses me off that he was allowed to plead guilty to burglary after he'd confessed to several murders. He's the kind of person the death penalty was made for.


Sidhe

[lumberjim]

you're absolutely right, sidhe. if a guy admits to a crime, he should not be able to plead it away just so they can close a few more open cases. that should be illegal, as it is openly adverse to the word 'justice'. if a person admits to a capitol crime in a death penalty state, and he/she is found guilty, they should be killed the same day. no appeal. certainly no automatic appeal.

how can a juge justify letting an admitted murderer go down on a burglery charge? stoopid.

so they closed 12 more cases. that's a short cut. they probably would have closed them anyway if they did the job right.

I think the DA that offered that deal should have to go to jail in his place if the guy gets out. that'll keep him inside.

[Lady Sidhe]

Central Florida Mom Indicted In Deaths Of Children
Official Cause Of Death Under Investigation

Andrea Noel Williams, 32, is suspected of drugging Ilona, 9, Ian, 6, and Ivey, 5. However, autopsy results haven't been issued to show the official cause of the children's deaths.

The indictment says Williams killed her children in early May in her Longwood home.

Police said the children were killed on Mother's Day, May 9 but the bodies were found May 11.

Williams was arrested May 10 in rural North Carolina where authorities said she confessed to killing the children, according to Local 6 News.



Longwood Children Allegedly Poisoned By Mom Buried
Mom Investigated Twice In 2003

LONGWOOD, Fla. -- As three children allegedly poisoned by their mother were buried Tuesday, law enforcement authorities were defending themselves for clearing the woman of past abuse allegations.

Andrea Williams, 32, was twice investigated last year by the Seminole County Sheriff's Office, but authorities found no reason to believe the children were at risk.

Williams was arrested May 10 in rural North Carolina. Authorities said she confessed to the killings of her children, Ilona, 9, Ian, 6, and Ivey, 5, the day before - Mother's Day. The children were found dead at the bottom of a trundle bed in their Longwood home.

Williams remains at the Seminole County Jail on murder charges.

Seminole County sheriff's Capt. Greg Barnett said he is confident his Child Protective Services investigators acted properly when they closed three reports without taking any action against Williams. The Sheriff's Office handles child abuse complaints in Seminole.

"We don't have a crystal ball, obviously," Barnett said.

Two reports stemmed from a March 2003 call to the state's abuse hot line by a mother whose child Williams was watching.

The woman told authorities her son made a statement that led her to think there was improper contact between her child and Williams.

The report concludes the boy may have been describing licking a lollipop that Williams gave him as a reward for good behavior, and investigators found no evidence of abuse for him or any of the Williams children.

The final report dealt with an investigation into Williams after she was hospitalized twice in eight days during the fall for mental evaluation under the state's Baker Act, which allows people to be evaluated to see if they are a threat to themselves or others.

It concluded there were "some indicators of substance exposed child," and said Ian told of twice being allowed to take a drink of beer while at the dinner table. The children "did not disclose abuse/neglect," according to the report.



Bodies Of 3 Children Found Stuffed Inside Bed, Mom Confesses

LONGWOOD, Fla. -- Authorities in Seminole County, Fla., found the bodies of three children Tuesday -- all under 10 years old -- stuffed inside a hideaway bed a day after their mother was arrested in North Carolina, according to Local 6 News.

Local 6 News reported that Andrea Williams, 32, confessed to killing her children -- ages 5, 6 and 9 -- and packing them in a bed inside a home located at 890 Georgia Avenue. Investigators told Local 6 News Tuesday night that it appeared the children had been under the bed for days.

Williams was arrested for second-degree trespassing Monday night in North Carolina. A search was launched in North Carolina when her three missing children could not be accounted for.

Longwood Police Chief Tom Jackson said the woman's husband, Gary Williams, helped police search the house Tuesday morning but could not find the children -- Ivy, 5; Ian, 6; and Ilona, 9.

However, Williams' comments while in custody led detectives to the home again and the children were found in the bed, Local 6 News reported.

[Lady Sidhe]

http://www.southernillinoisan.com/rednews/2004/06/12/build/top/TOP002.html

SUTHERLAND GUILTY IN RETRIAL FOR CHILD'S 1987 MURDER

[Fri Jun 11 2004]

BELLEVILLE (AP) -- A man who spent more than a decade on death row for the 1987 rape and murder of a 10-year-old Southern Illinois girl was convicted for a second time Friday in a retrial ordered by the state Supreme Court.

A St. Clair County jury convicted Cecil Sutherland, 49, on all five counts in the rape and death of Amy Schulz.

Jefferson County State's Attorney Gary Duncan said prosecutors will seek the death penalty.

Sutherland, a former tire-factory worker, was sentenced to die in 1989 after he was convicted the first time of abducting Amy from the small town of Kell, raping and strangling her and cutting her throat. The Supreme Court, however, ruled in 2000 that prosecutors went too far in linking hair and fiber evidence to Sutherland, said he had a weak defense, and ordered a new trial.

"We initially had 12 people who found him guilty, now we have 24," the girl's father, Dennis Schulz, told the Belleville News-Democrat outside the courtroom Friday.

The jury of eight women and four men deliberated for about eight hours Thursday and Friday before announcing the verdict. They found Sutherland guilty on three counts of first-degree murder and one count each of aggravated criminal sexual assault and aggravated kidnapping.

Sutherland showed no emotion while the judge read the verdict, which drew sobs from the girl's family, the St. Louis Post-Dispatch reported.

Defense attorneys had tried during the six-week trial to turn the focus on Schulz's step-grandfather, William Willis, a convicted sex offender.


Willis, 53, acknowledged during his testimony that he has a history of sexually abusing minors, including pleading guilty to molesting a Boy Scout in 1994. But he said he was never attracted to little girls and never molested Amy.

Prosecutors said Willis was excluded as the killer by hair and fiber evidence that were consistent with Sutherland's.

Duncan, who was not involved in the first trial, said the evidence had been bolstered by DNA technology that was not available in the 1980s.

Sutherland's defense attorney, former Chicago homicide detective John Paul Carroll, argued that the prosecution's mitochondrial DNA tests aren't as definitive as nuclear DNA tests.

Amy's death outraged the community, which created a child-advocacy center named in her honor.

The trial was moved out of Jefferson County because of extensive news coverage of the case in the Mount Vernon area.

[Lady Sidhe]

Posted on Mon, Jun. 14, 2004

Convicted killer faces new charges of murder, battering detainee

Associated Press

WEST PALM BEACH, Fla. - An inmate serving a 40-year sentence for a 1989 murder faces new charges of second degree murder and battery of a detainee, and has been transferred to a new prison, the Department of Corrections said.

Edwin Rivera, 37, of Sarasota, also faces a charge of felony battery causing great bodily harm. Department spokesman Sterling Ivey said he could not provide details about the new charges.

Rivera was arrested in October 1989 in Lee County, and pleaded no contest to murder, robbery with a deadly weapon, shooting missiles into a dwelling or vehicle, grand theft of a motor vehicle and attempted armed robbery.

On April 6, he was transferred from the Martin Correctional Institution in Indiantown to Florida State Prison in Starke, Ivey said.

Rivera was arrested on battery charges in April, but those were amended last month to include the murder charge.

The Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigates attacks that occur at state prisons, and forwards any charges to the state attorney's office, Ivey said.



So what does it take? Raping and murdering a convent full of nuns?? He can't even contain the violence after it got him in prison, what makes anyone think that prison's going to IMPROVE his behavior? Some people just never learn.


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

I know this didn't happen in the US, but raping and murdering a child deserves death, IMO

Sidhe



June 14, 2004

Justice for Caroline Dickinson

by Times online and PA news

Francisco Arce Montes was found guilty following a six-day trial in Rennes, Brittany, of the charge of murder of a minor preceded, accompanied, or followed by rape.

Montes, seated in the dock of the ornate packed court room, remained deadpan as the verdict was read out. Thirteen-year-old Caroline’s father, John, 48, from Bodmin, Cornwall, looked straight at Montes.

Just minutes after the sentence, John Dickinson stood on the steps of the court with his wife Sue and said: “I would like to be able to say this in French but the emotion is too much. I’m speaking on behave of Sue, Jenny and myself. The first thing to say is this is all about Caroline or ’Caz’ as some of her friends knew her. Although her life was short, she was happy, we knew she had a life ahead of her full of promise. We have some wonderful memories that we will cherish and she will never be forgotten.”

“The events of the last week have been for us a necessary but draining experience, as of course has the pursuit of justice for Caroline over the last eight years. We will now start the process of rebuilding our lives. We acknowledge that we are not the only victims of this dreadful crime, some of whom gave evidence at the trial and others whose evidence we have heard read. During these difficult times we have received support from many - family, our friends, colleagues and Caroline’s friends. Now is the time to let them know how much we have appreciated that support.”

Mr Dickinson, who at one stage was critical of the French investigation, went on: “We wish to express our particular thanks to the team of gendarmes who we knew as ’Cellule Caroline’ who through their hard work and dedication have brought Montes to justice.”

Mr Dickinson thanked his lawyer, Herve Rouzad le Boeuf; the French examining magistrates; and the Devon and Cornwall police who had worked alongside the French investigators.

For years her killer, 54-year-old Francisco Arce Montes, attacked and menaced women across Europe and in the US. On several occasions he was released without charge or bailed, only to move on and offend again. He was only traced by a stroke of luck when a US customs official, who read about Caroline’s case in a British newspaper, ran a check on one of the suspects named and discovered he was in custody in Florida.

Caroline died on July 18, 1996, within inches of four sleeping schoolfriends from Launceston Community College, in the Brittany village of Pleine-Fougeres.

Francisco Arce Montes was sentenced to 30 years in prison.

[Carbonated_Brains]

Wow, a huge torrent of newspaper articles.

I can't handle this thread anymore, it's maxxed out my irritate-o-meter.

[Lady Sidhe]

Self defense claimed in sword attack

By Pete Bowles
Staff Writer

June 14, 2004, 5:35 PM EDT

A Maspeth teen accused of hacking to death another teenager with a Samurai sword acted in self defense after the friend pointed a BB gun at him, according to a statement the teen gave to police.

"He pointed a gun at my head," the suspect, Michael Desiderio, 18, told a detective after his arrest in the slaying of Ricardo Richardson, also 18, in Richardson's home about 10 a.m. Sunday.

"I left the room," Desiderio said in the statement. "Then I went to get my sword and kept hitting him with the sword. He fell down. I put the sword in my closet in the basement of my home."

The statement Desiderio made to police was presented Monday at his arraignment in Queens County Criminal Court on charges of second-degree murder and criminal possession of a weapon.

Judge Lenora Gerald ordered him held in jail in lieu of bail and scheduled a court hearing for June 28.

Desiderio faces up to 25 years to life in prison if convicted.

Desiderio's attorney, Robert Gottlieb, argued that police had prevented his client from seeing two attorneys who went to a police precinct to assist him and that, as a result, he would seek to have the statement barred from trial.

Desiderio, who Gottlieb said has been working in a law office on Long Island for several months, was arrested at his grandfather's house at 54-43 66th St., where he had been living while his mother was moving into a new cooperative in Glen Oaks. His father lives in Arizona.

According to police, Desiderio killed Richardson with the sword in a two-story house on Maspeth Avenue which had become a hangout for local teenagers. Richardson, who moved to New York from Trinidad a few months ago, had been living in the house and had become a close friend to Desiderio.

Assistant District Attorney Natalie Bell told the court that Desiderio fled to his grandfather's house after the incident. "He left a man bleeding to death," she said.

Bell said Desiderio told the police were to find the bloody sword and admitted that he committed the gruesome crime. "I killed the guy," she quoted Desiderio as telling police. "The knife is wrapped up inside my bloody pants in the house."

Gottlieb said his client, who has a G.E.D. certificate, has never been convicted of a crime. His mother works as a school aide and his father owns his own business, the attorney said.



Uh-huh. I don't know about you, but bringing a sword to a gunfight is the way to go, I always say....

If someone were pointing a gun at my head, I wouldn't run to get a sword, then come BACK....I'd run and keep on going, then call the police. And it was a BB gun, for God's sake...since when is a shot from a BB gun fatal??

So we have someone who's admitted to murder, and I can't believe that he was in fear for his life from a BB gun. And if he WAS in fear for his life, why'd he run away, then go BACK??

It doesn't wash.


Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Originally posted by Carbonated_Brains
Wow, a huge torrent of newspaper articles.

I can't handle this thread anymore, it's maxxed out my irritate-o-meter.

I said that I'd be putting up articles. If the thread annoys you, I'm not forcing you to read it.

Although, I admit that I should just start putting up links. Problem is, the links expire after a certain amount of time. I'll try to do better, though.

Sidhe

[russotto]

A BB gun shot CAN be fatal, but if you leave, go pick up your sword, then come back and hack the gun-wielder to death, it doesn't matter if it was a BB gun or a Tommy gun, it's still not self-defense!

[lumberjim]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe


I said that I'd be putting up articles. If the thread annoys you, I'm not forcing you to read it.

Although, I admit that I should just start putting up links. Problem is, the links expire after a certain amount of time. I'll try to do better, though.

Sidhe
personally, i prefer the quoted excerpts. i don't like to follow links for some reason. and my irritate-o-meter has been pegged for months, so what's the difference? like you said, if we're irritated, we don't have to read the thread.

[Lady Sidhe]

Inmates charged with murder in convict's beating death

Officials won't give a motive in the case against the two prisoners, who are serving life terms in earlier deaths

Wednesday, June 16, 2004
JOSEPH ROSE

Two Oregon State Penitentiary inmates were charged Tuesday with beating and stabbing another convict to death last September inside the maximum-security prison.

Prosecutors said they will seek the death penalty for Jason Van Brumwell, 28, and Gary Haugen, 42, who were arraigned on aggravated murder charges in Marion County Circuit Court.

The men, who are serving life sentences for murder convictions, are accused of killing David Shane Polin, 31, in an activities area at the Salem prison.

Polin was a former Hillsboro resident serving time for attempted murder and drug convictions. An autopsy found that he died of stab wounds and blunt force head trauma on Sept. 2, 2004.

Authorities declined to discuss details of the case, saying they want to save most of the facts for trial, which isn't expected until 2005.

Don Abar, a Marion County deputy district attorney, said he was reluctant to discuss the possible motive behind the killing.

When murder happens behind bars, Abar said, the motives "are pretty consistent," he said. "It's gangs, drugs or revenge." He wouldn't say which applies to Polin's case.

Polin's wife, Clarinda Polin, said prosecutors have told her she will have to wait until the trial to learn more. "It's frustrating," she said, "but I guess I can understand that they need to keep things quiet to avoid any mess-ups."

She said she visited her husband the Saturday before his death. He didn't mention any problems with other inmates, she said.

Since 1986, there have been five inmate homicides inside Oregon State Penitentiary. "Before that, it had been a long while since we had a murder," said Mike Yoder, a prison spokesman.

State prison officials said Polin's killing prompted a change in how they gather and monitor inmates in the activities area used for counseling sessions and club gatherings.

Polin was attacked in a back room, out of view of corrections officers monitoring the area, said Perrin Damon, a Department of Corrections spokeswoman.

"Inmates are no longer allowed in the back rooms," Damon said. "All inmate activities have been moved to a central area, where there is direct supervision at all times."

A critical-incident review by prison officials found no reason to discipline the officers guarding Brumwell, Haugen and Polin the morning of the attack.

Haugen was convicted of aggravated murder in 1981 in Multnomah County for killing the mother of his ex-girlfriend at her Northeast Portland home. He beat the woman to death with his fists, a hammer and a baseball bat.

Brumwell's aggravated murder conviction stemmed from a robbery and killing in April 1994 at a west Eugene convenience store.

In the days after Polin's death, Oregon State Police investigators said they were getting no help from inmates who might have witnessed the slaying. Abar declined to say how the investigation led to Haugen and Brumwell.





If they'd given them the death penalty for the first murders, maybe this wouldn't have happened, hm?

Sidhe

[Lady Sidhe]

Inmate pleads guilty in 1989 murder; linked by DNA match

Baltimore - A prison inmate has entered a guilty plea in a Baltimore rape and murder that happened more than 14 years ago.

Fifty-seven-year-old John Holmes pleaded guilty yesterday to the fatal stabbing of Shirley Myers in December 1989 on Montpelier Street in northeast Baltimore. He was convicted of second-degree murder and first degree rape and was given a life sentence -- suspended after 25 years.

Holmes has already been serving a 25-year prison sentence since 1990 for armed robbery. He was linked to the Myers case through DNA tests.

------------------


Woman Pleads Guilty To First-Degree Murder In Husband's Death

POSTED: 6:35 am PDT June 17, 2004
UPDATED: 6:52 am PDT June 17, 2004
LOS ANGELES -- A woman accused of murdering her husband with the help of a man she met on the Internet is facing 25 years to life in prison after pleading guilty to first-degree murder.

Cathleen Quinn also agreed to testify against her alleged accomplice Wednesday.

A judge told Quinn during a hearing in West Valley Superior Court that she would reduce the charge to second-degree murder and sentence her to 15 years to life if she testifies truthfully during the upcoming trial of Alan Lee Lama.

Prosecutors say Quinn met the 35-year-old former radio announcer over the Internet and the two hatched a plot to assault 36-year-old James Quinn of Victorville, Calif.

Cathleen Quinn confessed to detectives that on January 24, 2003 she was driving her husband home from dinner when she took him to an isolated spot where Lama was waiting to rough him up. She said Lama attacked James Quinn with a knife and then used the cord from his sweat shirt to strangle him.

Lama has pleaded not guilty and denied any role. Now that Quinn has pleaded guilty, Lama's jury will be allowed to hear her confession and implication of Lama.

[Lady Sidhe]

Serial killer Robert Maudsley near death

British serial killer Robert Maudsley is reported to be near
death following 26 years in solitary confinement. The Daily
Mirror reported Monday Maudsley has lost a good deal of
weight because of drugs given to him to control his violent
mood swings have dulled his appetite. "It is hard to feel
sorry for such a man. But it's still shocking to see him
like that," said a prison insider at Wakefield prison.
A doctor visits Maudsely twice a day at his two-room glass
cage -- similar to the one in the film "Silence Of The
Lambs" that starred Anthony Hopkins as Hannibal Lecter.
Maudsley was sentenced to life in prison in 1974 after he
killed a laborer. Three years later, while in prison he
killed a pedophile. A guard said he fractured the man's
skull like an egg and then ate part of his brain with a
spoon. In 1978, he killed two more convicts. Because of
his prison killings Maudsely was placed into solitary
confinement, a punishment he described as "being buried
alive in a concrete coffin."





Aaaaand, so what, we're supposed to feel sorry for him or something?

Oh, but he's probably crazy or something...his mom yelled at him when he was, like, five, and it traumatized him so much that he had to kill.

Silly me.



Sidhe

[OnyxCougar]

Here's another instance where Prison apperantly wasn't a deterrant, they got out and killed again...because "I thought they stole my Xbox".

http://www.cnn.com/2004/LAW/08/09/fla.killing.probation/index.html

Or the case of the teenager with the pipe bombs...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/US/South/08/10/pipe.bombs/index.html

[wolf]

This is a bit of fun that was lost in the crash, so I repost it here ...

Note the Bad Ad Placement

http://scribe.fork.org/cellar/xbox-sm.jpg

[Brianna]

Wow on the Xbox ad placement. they stop at nothing!

[glatt]

Google places targeted ads on web pages based on text on the page. Fox may do the same thing. It's all automated.

[lookout123]

often times they have ads that aren't even connected to the text on the page - it can be just a coincedence.
on 9/11/01 there were ads for lowered fairs and extra miles on the cnn (i believe) page right below the picture of the plane going into one of the towers. i remember seeing this, but i don't know where so i can't place the link.

[xoxoxoBruce]

There was another one about a woman that killed her boyfriend for erasing her Ipod, that had an Ipod ad on the same page. :rolleyes:

[Happy Monkey]

This is a bit of fun that was lost in the crash, so I repost it here ...
Note the Bad Ad Placement
Why do you say it's bad placement? They're trying to avert further murders with free Xboxes!

[sycamore]

But what if you're a PS2 fan? The offer could drive you to murder!