discipline
 

Do you believe in Corporal punishment? If your kid is extra-bad, what do you do? where is the line between abuse and discipline?


When my kids are acting up, and not responding to my loud and angry voice, i start counting. if I get to 3, they get a swat on the butt. EVERY TIME. not hard, but not a pat, either. In fact, they have actually asked," was that a REAL spank?" and when i said yes, THEN they started to cry.....both kids at different times. this tells me that it's more the point, than the pain. when they cross the line far enough for me to spank, then they are "in trouble" for real, and they're upset.

I have never put them accross my knee and given them a "spanking" like my dad did on special occaisions did with me and my sibs. I can't say that I rule it out completely, but the idea has never crossed my mind, or they have never been that bad.

how bout you?

I whip them with a belt buckle.

good thing you don't have kids.

I have no children and do NOT intend to (hear me Dagney??).

However, I firmly (pun intended) believe in spanking as a last ditch discipline measure. Worked for me when I was young and it worked for generations of our parents/grandparents etc and it will work now. In fact, I don't think we have ENOUGH spanking going on, thanks largely to the touchy-feely do-gooders who are spending valuable school time teaching kids what is "abuse" and how to report it to the authorities, who have little or no oversight and zero accountability for their actions. Further, there are NO repercussions for the child who alleges "abuse" in an attempt to garner attention or to "get back" at parents who dared to attempt to punish them.

I speak from personal experience.

Brian

A swat on the ass or a smack on the hand is cool. I don't think ass-beatings are necessary to teach kids right from wrong.

Just because it "worked" back in the day doesn't mean it will work in 2004. Society continues to change...what was good then may not be so good now.

THE SWATEES:

Oh no! I almost saw Jimbo's daughter's breast! I'm offended and have suffered mental anguish! I'm suing!

Society changes because touchy feely do gooders and lawyers keep fucking it up.

Oh yeah...that explains everything!

I smack my kids on the butt but not very often. I find time outs and moreso the threat of a time out is the most effective [robot voice] behavior modification tool[/robot].

Here are my timeout victims huddled in terror.

http://www.cofe.dc.net/TOR1.jpg

Yes it does. What's different about 2004 than say 1974 that make child discipline different? why doesn't 1974 methods work today? Have you got a better explanation, smart ass.

This was before he beat the snot out of 'em with a frying pan. :)

Well, I'd say there are several factors involved:

--Increasing gender equality
--Research that shows the detrimental effects of physical punishment
--Respect for psychological research
--Better educated parents
--The number of child abuse cases coming forth (that originated back in the day)

If you want to back up your original flippant remark, I'll be happy to back up the above factors.

      I'm perfectly willing to spank my kids, and have done so. However, I haven't needed to in years. The last time was when my daughter took her shoes off after she had been specificaly instructed not to in an area that had broken glass. Ripped her right off the ground, swatted her and carried her back to her shoes. This was a couple of years ago.
      On an interesting side note, her big brother witnessed the whole event and quickly followed all orders given, to the letter, for months.

I've had this discussion with my parenting friends who I defer to, cause they livin it.

There are moments, they arent daily and shouldnt hopefully be regular, but moments when you need to make an impression- The glass scene is a good example, or running into the street, or the little rat smacking Mom to test it out, who's the boss... then you have to bring a little fear 'o god to show the line. Effective only if rare.

--Increasing gender equality
What's that got to do with disipline?
--Research that shows the detrimental effects of physical punishment
Touchy feely research Inc ?
--Respect for psychological research
Respect for quacks that allow the obnoxious little bastards that rule the malls?
--Better educated parents
A bunch of parents that have had just enough college Psycology, all out of the same fucking book, that tells them they're fucked up because of their parents and they're not at fault.
--The number of child abuse cases coming forth (that originated back in the day)
That will never change and has nothing to do with discipline. That's sick shit that people perpretrate on weaker people regardless of age or kinship. That's a far cry from boo hoo, my parents spanked me because I was a rotten kid.
Heaven forbid we should mar Johnnys self esteem by making him responsible for his actions, We'll let him grow up thinking he can do what ever the hell he wants so he'll be happy. At least until he goes to jail or worse.

It's all that Dr. Spock guy's fault ...

But anyway, I have it on good authority (the authority being a supervisor for Children and Youth Services) that in Pennsylvania one IS allowed to strike a child with open hand on a fleshy part of the body.

Check individual state regs before proceeding in other jurisdictions.

Personally, I think that many children should be raised in a box, much like veal, and let out when they turn 18.

amen.

I was working one night and it was very busy and hectic. At the time there were 2 business managers, and we both had deals on our desks. The (at that time) senior business mgr was Rich. Rich was very, shall we say, ....fastidious. He looked like a banker, too. In fact, the salesmen all called him "Dreisdale" after the banker on the Beverly Hillbilies. Suspenders and all. All he needed was a monacle, and he'd look just like the monopoly guy. This doesn;t make a bit of difference to the story, by the way, just so you know he's pretty straight, and sober.

So, Rich has a customer in his office. A lady. And they're talking, and I can hear them through my wall, as our offices were adjacent. At the same time there are three kids creating a ruccus in the lounge area. And their father is losing his grip. The girl (7yrs old?) is going,"~~anoyyyyyyyyying! anoyyyyyyyying!, anoyyyyyyyying!" over and over to make her brothers go nuts. and everyone elses that can hear her. I was appreciating the irony, but dad didn't see the humor. So he's yelling at them and telling them that if they get out of their chairs again, he's going to break their arms or some other bullshit threat that only made you go," gee, i bet this guy abuses his kids!" in your head. It was uncomfortable.

At this point I had to go into Rich's office to get a new license plate out for my customer. As I go in, Rich and his customer look up at me and pause their conversation, and I smile at the lady and tell rich, " Call the cops, this guy's out of control." ~jokingly

And the lady says, " sounds like their father is having a hard time with them", or something noncommital like that...sounded like small talk to me....and I say, " yeah, but at this point it's too late to yell at your kids. you have to have laid down the law at home, or you can;t expect them to be cooperative in PUBLIC." Like I knew what the fuck I was talking about ( this is before I was a dad).

So guess who walks into the office and says," Honey, blah blah blah whatever, yadda yadda yadda. ( doesn;t matter, and i can;t remember) ?

yeah, the psycho father. I looked at Rich, who knew who the guy was, and had been staring at me with his mouth open about 3/4 of an inch, holding his breath the whole time I was talking to the lady ( I had my back to Rich). He had turned a nice deep strawberry red, too, which was highlighted by his massive balding forehead with it's little shock of yellow hair. he looked like a lit candle. The moment took about 3 days to go by as I calmly left the room without looking at either of the customers, and dove into my office pulling the door shut behind me.

I still think it was too late for the guy to be yelling at his kids.


man, i feel embarrassed again just in re-telling that.

Well see, that just shows his skill as a photographer to have the watermelon strategically placed. If he'd been running the cameras at the superbowl this whole business wouldn't have happened.

We've never spanked ours, but I have no objectino to a well-placed swat under appropriate circumtances, as seems to be the mainstream thinking on the thread so far.

Ok, I don't have any kids, but when I was younger, I had sometimes rather powerful contacts with my father's hand. "Take of your glasses" and I knew what was coming. I don't think that I have some trauma because of this...
It's important to make the difference between a disciplinary mseure and beating the kids because they are there and can't defend themselfs.
I also think a spank should be given immediately after the "crime" otherwise a child maybe can't make the link between the punishment and the fault.

http://maddox.xmission.com/beatkid4.jpg

Maddox has a different perspective about raising children.

My sister and I were never spanked. Instead, my dad managed to find a means of discipline that inspired fear and awe in most of the neighborhood children without landing him a child abuse lawsuit.

He'd lecture us at length. Early on it was sort of intolerable, because I'd have to stand around and switch from foot to foot to keep my legs from getting sore. It became a joke after a while, though; "will your dad lecture me if I don't take my shoes off before walking across this carpet?" Over the years he became more laid back, or something to that effect, and the lectures became shorter and more interesting. Now we regard him as a fount of useful and often obscure knowledge, such as the tax information we need to file our FAFSAs.

I suppose spanking would work in place, but I think the end result would be different. I can easily see myself resenting somebody who forced me to respect their strength and ability to cause pain. Letting it the child(ren) respect you for your intelligence and insight seems like a better long term strategy.

What? And lose out on the great "Wait until your Father gets home".:haha:

I am all for a swat on the bum. Sometimes you need to prove to a kid that you are the boss, and saying "I'm the boss" doesn't always cut it. I was spanked as a child, sometimes hard (if my dad was doing it) and sometimes not (mom). They always counted to 5 and if they got there then that was the result. Most the time I did as I was told by the time they got to 4. I can see no lasting damage done to me. I have a very distinct memory of being 4 and my mom patting me on the hand saying "this is a pat, now this is a spank" They were the same but man did I cry after the "spanking".

My older sister refuses to spank her children. Most the time her 4 year old daughter tells her no when asked to do something and since the law is never laid down, so to speak, that kid just runs right over both her parents. Her other child is only 16 months old so not yet old enough to tell her no. Seeing how her kids are, I would rather be a little too harsh on occasion then not harsh enough. I couldn't imagine having a kid that thought they could tell me what to do.

Skunks, your story reminds me of my Uncle, he never spanks his kids but reasons them to death. There have been times when he is telling them why they need to listen to him or why what they did was wrong, and I am thinking "oh heck, just spank them and get it over with, because this reasoning with them is a cruel and unusual punishment". You can see their eyes gloss over sometimes.

Oh man that was always my worst fear, my dad spanked hard so I always listened to my mom right away when she brought up the Dad threat.
I also hated the double punishment, mom would punish me and then when my dad got home she would tell him what I had done and there was a whole new round of punishment.

Actually this is forbidden by the law... You can't get punished twice for the same crime. Go and sue your parents!

Thats a common misinterpretation. You see Mom generally runs a criminal trial and after conviction you do your time. Dad runs a civil trial over the pain and suffering you caused Mom followed by restitution.

Aw man, at least your dad allowed you to take off your glasses! In my house, it was like, "Go upstairs to your room!" (usually after I'd come home from school after doing something bad). I don't think I have any trauma either, although I did harbor some ill feelings towards him, but that was years ago.

Sycamore and I disagree with corporal punishment, but I say that today's kids don't have a healthy "fear" of their parents. Some may say that's crazy to fear your parents, but let me explain.

When I was younger, my friends and I knew that adult eyes would be watching us in the neighborhood while we were outside playing. That made it very hard to get away with anything, but we didn't want to anyway. In other words, why PURPOSELY put yourself in trouble? Also, we thought twice about doing something stupid by thinking, "Man, if I do this, I'm going to be in serious trouble!" Why? Because we were afraid of what was going to happen to us if our parents found out!! I don't see or hear of that "fear" in today's children. I see kids being quite defiant, rude, and outright nasty to authority figures. They just don't give a damn.

A friend of mine has a 4 year old son. Sometimes, when I talk to her on the phone, and he's playing in the background and gets too loud, she'll tell him to quiet down, and sometimes, he'll say, "NO!" And she does...nothing. He'll keep doing this until she has to start with the threats of, "if you don't quiet down, I'm gonna..." but yet, she doesn't do anything (or at least, not that often). Or, he'll get into something, and his mother will fuss, and he'll start loudly shouting and having a fit. That boy gets away with murder with her as far as I'm concerned.

Whew, I wouldn't want to raise kids in this current world.

I have no experience in disciplining. I've only been on the receiving end. I'll tell you how I honestly feel about it, though.

I think that anyone who would rule through pain and fear is a vicious, sick dictator who has no compassion for the way their child feels afterwards. In every moral system that I have ever encountered, inflicting pain via torture is always evil.

Sure, it's a quick fix for the parent. They don't have to deal with the problem anymore, and by ignoring that their child is now in emotional agony, they can go on about their selfish business. But what have they actually taught the child? "Oh, he won't do THAT again! HA HA HA!" Fuck you! Inflicting pain is not love, it's evil. How about teaching them the reasons behind right and wrong instead?

Ugh. I'm so going to get flamed over this. In any case, when Sarah gets older, I've decided that I'l resort to spanking if I really have to, because there's a lot of things that I've already decided not to tolerate. Besides, violating a moral system is a not quite as bad as not having one at all. Discipline is important. But I'm going to try every other thing I can possibly think of first. It is a <i>last resort</i>.

uh.. sorry if I offended you. I have issues.

I think every parent has a right to decide what they want to do with their kids. If you don't believe in spanking then I say more power to you. I do know people who have never laid a hand on their kids, AND their kids are very well behaved. But I also know people who really do need to get a little more aggressive in their discipline (like my sister and brother in-law) and lay down the law. I think if you can have well behaved kids without spanking them, then good.

Now here is where I disagree with you. I never saw getting a spanking as ruling with pain and fear. Often times the spankings I received were no harder then a pat on the butt. They almost never caused pain, but the principle of them is what I respected. Also because my parents counted to 5 before delivering said spankings it really became MY choice. I could CHOOSE not to listen to them. This is a foundation for all of our society. There are rules and laws, and you can choose to break them but there are consequences. Thats all I see spankings as. For my children it comes down to this: I have laid down the rules, we (the child and I) know what they are and just as when they get older there are repercussions to not following the rules.

Just my outlook on it.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Eh, actually in my earlier example I inflicted minor pain, mostly shock really, in order to avoid major pain and blood loss. A lot of discipline is targeted that direction.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Also, a slap on the ass works really well with kids to young to lecture. By the time my kids could properly stand they had been taught what they were allowed to touch. I never actually hurt them, but a couple of well timed swats to the diaper made the point well.
&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Which brings up another point. You don't have to hurt them when you spank them. Like Brig suggested earlier, just knowing it's a swat, not a pat, will often cause the desired effect, without a really difference in force used.

I have never in my life heard of such a thing. Spanking doesn't hurt? This concept is foreign to me. We're truely talking about two completely different types of punishment here.

Dude its like swatting a dog with a news paper , it doesn't hurt , but it freaks them out . I used to get the kids attetion by just apearing when they least expected it . Their mom only had to spank them once that i ever knew of .

After talking to Whit on IM, I guess I have to clarify. My mother made me drop my pants, exposing bare ass, after which she spanked me hard, over and over, until my butt was so red I could barely sit down for the next couple hours.

That's honestly what I thought spanking was. I always felt I got off easy, after hearing stories from my mom's childhood about how she had to "go out back and get her own switch from the tree -- a new green one, so it didn't break easily".

For the most part the spankings my sisters and I received never hurt. Every now and then if we were being royal asses then yes the spanking was a little more forceful, but never enough to leave bruises, just sting a bit for a minute or so. Now having had different parents I have no doubt that the spankings you may have received were different from the ones I received. The point I was making in my last post is that a spanking doesn't always have to hurt, you can give them with very little force and because of the psychological point of them the child sees it as a punishment.

When I was about 6 or 7 I said to my mom "You know your spankings don't hurt, right?" to which she replied "They are not suppose to".

EDIT: I didn't see your above post about the type of spankings you received till after I hit post reply.

I am not trying to over step my bounds here so forgive me if I plant my foot in my mouth too bad, but this type of "spanking" is one of the main reasons IMO that spanking has become illegal in many states. The type of spanking you just described Juju is well beyond what I think is a fair punishment, and it borders if not crosses the beating line in my eyes. And frankly I can see where you are coming from saying spanking is wrong.

My grandma used to make my mom go get a wooden brush which my grandma would then beat her over the head with. My mom tells that on a few occasions my grandma broke the brush on her head. I was always horrified by this story. This is NOT in my opinion how corporal punishment should be.

Wow. I had no idea it didn't have to be like that.

&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp;&nbsp; Not even close to like that. I can remember times when I gave a kid a swat because they wouldn't stop climbing on me when I was trying to do important paper work only to have them look up pleased that I was finally playing, see the serious/angry look on my face and immediately break into tears from the same swat that made them smile. It's all about the perceived intent.

I have to agree with that. Nowadays, if your kids are little bastards, it's YOUR fault for not disciplining them; however, if you discipline them, you're being abusive. You just can't win.

I've never had to spank my daughter. 'Course, she's only two, but so far, a slapped hand does the trick. It's actually kinda funny....you tell her no, she does the forbidden act again, so you slap her hand....she looks at you, all offended, as if to say, "oh, my GOD...how DARE you?" Then begins to wail as if you've beaten her with a broomstick. But it gets the message across.

I was never spanked as a child, so it doesn't come natural to me to think of spanking my daughter. It just doesn't occur to me to do it. I was an only child, raised around adults, so I never went through the regular kid phases. My daughter is an only child, and I intend for her to stay that way, so maybe she'll grow up the way I, and my husband, who was also an only child, did. We matured quickly. Perhaps she will too...

Sidhe

In case you haven't made the connection by now ... that's abuse.

Or is by today's standards, rather.

I was spanked as a child, sometimes a simple swat, but other times over the knee with a wooden spoon. Always by my mother. It was rare... I was spanked maybe 10 times in my life. But I earned every spanking I got, I don't feel my parents treated me unjustly. My dad never really spanked me, but the mere thought of him being upset and disappointed with me was bad enough.

Lots of kids today are not disciplined enough, and they walk all over their parents. Part of this is due to parents being too lax, but I can identify with them to a degree... they're living in a time where one will be harshly judged for over-discsiplining or under-disciplining their child. They walk on a razor's edge sometimes with this kind of stuff. But we've got a generation of kids who may not be prepared for the world, because they've always done whatever they want to. I think this is a big factor in the growing popularity of blame-dodging and whininess... nobody takes responsibility for anything anymore.

I guess I have several basic philosophies on disciplining kids, which will probably change as I gain experience:


1) Know where you're going with punishment. Always know what you'll do next if the current measure is unsuccessul. Whether it's spanking, time-out, whatever.

2) Be consistent with a child. The whole point of discipline is to modify behavior, and inconsistency will bugger that up.

3) Never make a threat you won't follow through on. If you do, a boundary just collapsed.

4) What works for one child may not work for another... offer custom-fit discipline to increase effectiveness.

5) It is important that the child understands WHY they are being punished, and when escalating, they should know that it is because previous measures didn't get through to them. Allowing a child to know WHY they are being punished does not require that they agree with the reasoning.


Of course there are thousands of associated little details, but I think those are the key considerations. If that approach doesn't work, then fuck it... bend their fingers backwards until they stop the offending behavior. :D

Discipline
 

Check out this site and the picture "An Array of Scottish Tawses"
www.corpun.com/scotland and see what the teachers used to keep order when I was at school.
Some of them were so sadistic with it,after six slaps with one of these,your hands were numb for hours.
One old art teacher had a trick he would show all the new kids he would hit a coin on his desk with one of these babies and the coin would be flush in the wood of the desk.Left an impression in more than the desk, break out in a sweat remembering it.

What the heck is it this time?
Access denied

Proxy server = ganymede
Time & Date = 1076500904; Wed Feb 11 13:01:44 2004
Client address = 172.16.20.197
Client group = RMA-all
URL = http://www.corpun.com/scotland
Target class = porn

Can't somebody post the pic, please?

Bad link corrected:

http://www.corpun.com/scotland.htm

Scottish "tauses":

http://cellar.org/2004/3504.jpg

Thanks a lot! Those things look scary to me. In my school there was a teacher who took the pupil and hang it on a coat hook outside the classroom and then you only heard him punishing the kid and the kid screaming. It was quite horrible because you didn't see what was happening...

they hit you on the HANDS with them? fuck. They had paddles(some had air holes for better speed, and one had "OR ELSE" printed on it) in my school but they were to be applied posteriorly. The shop teacher used to throw a big ol' rubber mallot at you from accross the room with a high degree of accuracy and timing that kept you pretty honest because you never knew where or when the mallot would come.

That's messed up. He could have put an eye out, and then sorry wouldn't be enough.

Anyone who targets me with a projectile of any kind has to expect return fire.

The funny thing is that we all loved the guy. The mallott didnt hurt much, cuz he'd usually hit your legs. One time he was extra mad at my friend mike, and whipped it at his head, but mike saw it coming an ducked. the mallott hit the cover of a breaker box and dented it. fun times, man. fun times.

I had a teacher in that was an semi-pro soft ball pitcher . She kept 3-4 eracers behind her desk , if you fell asleep in her class you would wake up with a bruse and a cloud of chalk dust around you . I saw her nail 3 guys faster than the eye could follow , WHIP WHIP WHIP!!!!!!! She NEVER interupted her conversation , or raised her voice as she was flinging those eracers .
She also had 3 plastic bottles of elmers glue on her desk , those were for the folks that cussed when she nailed them with the eracers .
DAMN those sum'bitches HURT !!!!!:eek: :eek:

i was only spanked once as a child. i think i was three but i remember it well. it was with a ruler across the back of my legs, not too hard though, just enough to sting for a bit, for running out into the street for not looking both ways. it worked, well sort of. a few years later at school i was crossing the street to my mom's car after school, i looked both ways, no cars were coming and still got clocked by a cadillac. my mom was PISSED! not at me though, but the guy driving b/c he was hauling ass in a school zone. i was alright. just scared mostly with a couple of scrapes and bruises. when it comes to my boy, all i have to do is count to three and i usually only make it to 2 before he shapes up.

Flashback to militry school in Lebanon...

Instructor: Mr. Bernard please report to the Commandant for discipline.

Me: Yes sir!

Me: knocking on door sil Sir! Private Bernard reporting as ordered for four of the very best!

The paddle was over a yard long and about 5 inches wide. Two-handed grip, no shit. That guy was an artist. He could space the licks out just enough that the burning was just starting to be replaced by tingling when the next one would come. Bent over his desk, the licks would pick you up on your toes.

Edit :Forgot to mention, that was in Lebanon, Tenn...

As far as my daughter goes, physical discipline is a result of other methods not working. That simple. You simplystart small and work your way up until you find what is necessary. Hopefully physical discipline isn't necessary. It isn't for some children.

With her, she's learning what no means. When she was one'ish she was motoring around the house and getting into stuff. When she would get into stuff and it would be: no, then NO, and then NO*whack*. The whack would come in the form of a heavy duty paint stick I picked up from Lowe's. In time she learned that when I reached behind my head for the stick she had exceeded the non-corporal boundaries. In time she learned the parameters of my discipline. She made 2 on Dec 31st and I haven't had to pick up the stick in 3 months.

If you're consistent they learn. If they won't learn, emancipate them and send them on their way before they get you sued or thrown in jail.

That explains a lot. :)

Whenever I think the world just doesn't make sense anymore, I recieve a sign like this one, and it all becomes clear again.

And your next sign will be arriving in 7 days.

glad to have been a help:D :beer:

what doesn't make sense to me is the fuzzy math done last saturday when i bought my truck!:D

My mother used a wooden spoon on my bare butt when I was bad, and guess what! I wasn't bad very often. Who would've thought!

Sorry, but the anti-spanking people are off their rockers, and the "spanking is abuse" people are positively dangerous.

My biggest mistake as a child was whispering to my brother, "it doesn't hurt when mum hits you, but just cry anyway and she'll stop sooner." Unfortunately, Mum overheard me and switched to one of Dad's leather belts for the following belting. I've learned to whisper much better since then. My father used to belt me for not eating my dinner quick enough which was a bitch. I blame him for the love handles since apparently your food digests better if you eat more slowly.

I have children of my own now. They're 8 and 9 and they're no strangers to the odd smack on the bum. I rarely resort to this as a punishment though. I find that if I show my children my emotions and how their actions have affected not only me but perhaps other people, the guilt trip is much more effective.

To me, discipline is about consideration. Consideration is learning how your own actions affect the people around you and to be conscious of it at all times. If the kids yell and misbehave when I'm trying to talk on the phone, they're being inconsiderate, hence, they are punished. Usually the punishment for that is that they have to leave the house and are not allowed back inside till the next meal is served. (we have a perfectly good back yard for them to play in, however, they can't play xbox or anything like that outdoors, so it's a suitable punishment most of the time) A child doesn't need to be punished very often to learn a lesson if the punishment fits the crime, and they know you're going to follow through when you say something. That's the key. Consistency. If I'm consistant with my punishments, the kids will know what to expect, so I'm showing them consideration. :)

There are other punishments besides spanking, of course: early bedtime, extra chores, standing with nose in the corner, no privileges. In my house, though, I got those punishments PLUS a spanking, not instead of!

There are only two spankable offenses in our house:

1) Lying, and

2) Defiance

Sophia is only 7 months, so I don't expect to have to dish it out any time soon, but when the time comes, I think it's perfectly acceptable to use spanking as a final step in escalating discipline.