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-   -   Deja vue Katrina (http://cellar.org/showthread.php?t=33064)

tw 09-27-2017 03:46 PM

Deja vue Katrina
 
Capt Nora Tyson maneuvered the USS Bataan, an amphibious aircraft carrier, into position to rescue victims of Katrina. And there it sat anchored about 100 miles off shore and unable to offer assistance because a president did nothing for five days. Due to a Posse Comitatus Act, Federal troops cannot be deployed unless permitted by the President under Title 10. Since George Jr and his administration did nothing for five days, then the USS Bataan sat anchored at sea off of New Orleans mostly doing only reconnaissance - anchored nearby to Navy ships from The Netherlands, Canada, and Mexico also there to rescue victims.

When George Jr finally authorized military assistance, then both the USS Bataan and USS Iwo Jima (that arrived from Norfolk) steamed up the Mississippi to dock within blocks of the Super Dome and convention center. Finally six operating rooms and facilities to fed 10,000 people daily got implemented - how many days after they were available?

Eventually, even the USS Comfort, a hospital ship, was deployed. But that was over a week after Katrina did its damage. Because it was desperately needed a week earlier.

What could aircraft carriers do that was most needed? Recharge radios for police, fire, and other civilian authorities who had no communication.

One would think this would never happen again. Puerto Rico is now five days with almost no Federal Assistance. Unfortunately the press cannot get there - no roads exist - to or on island. But it is an island. A perfect location for aircraft carriers all over the Atlantic and Gulf to deploy immediate assistance.

Instead another mental midget president wants to attack the NFL rather than deploy what that island desperately needs - supplies, fuel, transport, and hospitals that lie in abundance on so many nearby and underemployed aircraft carriers and other Navy ships.

The difference? Reporters could get into New Orleans immediately to see who the problem really was. Puerto Rico can only be accessed by air. Even an air traffic control station atop Puerto Rico's highest mountain is damaged and unavailable for days. And it takes days for the National Guard to chop (clear) an access road. And then repairs can be implemented. Meaning is it difficult to air in desperately needed supplies.

But aircraft carriers already have those supplies and could have been there on day one. It required a president and his staff to be moderates - not wacko extremists. "You are doing a good job Brownie" as people were dying even from no water. Deja vue.

Assistance that could happen in hours if a president had less contempt for over 3 million Americans in Puerto Rico. He even blames them for damage to 'obsolete infrastructure' rather than deploy assistance.

Sound just like the Beverly Hills Supper Club where hundreds were harmed or died in a fire. Then victims were blamed for their own death by a government report. Do we still elected people that dumb?

85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. Since this president (as dumb as the people who support him) instead blames the victims, then 99% of all problems are directly traceable to him.

Well he finally authorized military assistance. For example, less than a third of Puerto Rico's hospitals are functional. So today, the USS Comfort was finally ordered to deploy. It sat in Norfolk for five days doing nothing. It is a slow ship. It will take many more days to get there. It could have been there long ago if a president was intelligent rather than egotistical. And was working for America - not for his own promotion and ego.

Why did he finally authorize assistance? Uproar criticism on Twitter was too much to ignore. If he did not do something, then even the dumbest Americans, his supporters, might finally learn how mistaken they have been.

Deja vue Katrina. This time the mental midget president is Trump. Hurricane that demonstrated what his real agenda is: Maria.

xoxoxoBruce 09-27-2017 05:17 PM

But to be fair, Trump doesn't have any investments in Puerto Rico. :rolleyes:

sexobon 09-27-2017 05:32 PM

Not to mention he doesn't drink; so, no ships were sent in to rescue the remaining fine Puerto Rican rum which should've been an obvious priority.

tw 09-27-2017 05:48 PM

Well someone had to go to the mountaintop (and fix the air traffic control station) so that Trump can visit.

Pamela 09-28-2017 03:34 PM

OK, this will not stand unchallenged.

President Trump authorized USNS Comfort a full three days before the hurricane hit that island. It takes five days to fuel, load out and get the Comfort underway. Then it took days more to clear a dock, which due to that ship's design, is required for it to anchor and offload.

The President has done way more than he gets credit for for the people of Puerto Rico, and, IMO, more than they deserve.

They are sitting down there, whining that no one is helping them yet not one is lifting one finger to help themselves. No one is trying to clear the streets so that aid convoys can get through, no one is showing up to drive trucks with the supplies that were PRESTAGED there in anticipation of the disaster. And the press is gleefully lapping all this up as a chance to bash the President. (I will NEVER get tired of saying that!)

So take your CNN talking points and shove em, tw.

glatt 09-28-2017 05:14 PM

If you have looked at the NOAA imagery, the roads are largely cleared, around the coastal areas at least, and cars are driving around. A small number of planes are landing. Apartment buildings are looking undamaged but single family homes are pretty bad.

sexobon 09-28-2017 07:05 PM

Hmmm, President Trump used to own the Miss America pageant.

You don't suppose this has anything to do with anything do you?

Did Miss Puerto Rico mock Trump in her Miss America monologue?

The Donald has a long memory for things like that.

tw 09-28-2017 07:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pamela (Post 996385)
President Trump authorized USNS Comfort a full three days before the hurricane hit that island. It takes five days to fuel, load out and get the Comfort underway. Then it took days more to clear a dock, which due to that ship's design, is required for it to anchor and offload.
.

From the Virginian Pilot of 26 Sept 2017:
Quote:

The Navy's hospital ship USNS Comfort will depart Naval Station Norfolk by the weekend and head to Hurricane Maria-ravaged Puerto Rico, U.S. Fleet Forces Command spokesman Lt. Cmdr. Brian Wierzbicki said Tuesday.
Completely contradicts what has been heard on wacko extremist talk shows.

On 28 September, USNS Comfort is at 36.93354 N / 76.33005 W - still in Norfolk. Has not moved for 8 days after Hurricane Maria hit Puerto Rico. Or 10 days after this hurricane was a Category 5 that would definitely hit Puerto Rico or US Virgin Islands. Here we are 10 days after an impending disaster (just like Katrina) was clearly known. The USNS Comfort still has not moved.

Cruise ships unload thousands of passengers, restock and refuel the ship, and load thousands more passengers in less than a day. Who is this extremist who said it takes three days to load and fuel (not even first unload) a navy ship? Well, a dumb administration never ordered any deployment until six days after the entire island was devastated. So everything must be done from scratch. A week after an impending disaster, no planning had been done. None. In part, because a President must first authorize it. Instead, he was too busy attacking the NFL.

USNS Comfort will probably arrive on 4 Oct. 14 days after Hurricane Maria's damage needed it deployed. 17 days after an impending disaster was known. George Jr also did same with with an Indian Ocean tsunami and with Katrina. Trump failed to learn from those glaring mistakes? Trump took six days just to admit a problem existed. It says so much about who this guy is AND how brainwashed his supporters are.

From the New York Daily News of 28 Sept 2017:
Quote:

On Wednesday, the Pentagon announced Brig. Gen. Jeffrey Buchanan would oversee the military response in Puerto Rico.
It took this president seven days to finally assign a military commander for the response? Exactly, if one is not so poorly informed and uneducated by extremist news sources. Trump did nothing for almost a week.

From Gen Honore who is famous for his response in New Orleans:
Quote:

"His (Buchanan's) headquarters exists 365 days a year, just for this mission," Honore told CNN on Thursday. "It took us eight days to mobilize him to tell him to come do it."
When did Trump take his first disaster briefing in the Situation Room? 26 September 2017 - six days after the disaster.

Trump said,
Quote:

"This is an island sitting in the middle of an ocean. And it's a big ocean; it's a very big ocean."
That Atlantic Ocean is virtually an American lake. Best rescue equipment and supplies are easiest to deliver. The Atlantic Ocean means best equipment can arrive quickly and sit right off the coast for immediately deployment. Trump even lies about the Atlantic to avert obvious incompetence.

From The Guardian of 26 Sept 2017:
Quote:

But it took the president five full days to respond to the plight of the US territory. When he finally did so on Monday night, his comments on Twitter were so devoid of empathy it threatened to spark new controversy.
Even UK news sources report on Trump's inaction and ignorance.

Anyone can see that Trump spend time arguing about NFL players and completely ignored what is obviously his 'Katrina'. Anyone who is honest.

Now if Trump will only say "Your doing a good job Brownie." Then maybe reality will be so obvious.

Pamela - as a die hard Trump supporter, reality must be traumatic. You are not ready to admit this president's incompetence. Never forget his objective all through his life. Same as Nixon's. America is second to what is more relevant - #1 - he and his legacy. His legacy first.

sexobon 09-28-2017 08:42 PM

Hmmm, I've read that the Navy already had two amphibious ships off the coast, the USS Kearsarge and the USS Oak Hill, so the few thousand Marines and sailors aboard could launch relief operations.

Also, that more than 40 of the island's 69 hospitals were now accepting patients.

It's being said that the call for the Comfort has become just a symbol to send more: more food, more water, more generators, more aircraft ... more everything.

More will take time and since they're having to rebuild the distribution system to deliver the goods to the interior, they have time to get the Comfort there.

Undertoad 09-28-2017 09:13 PM

I should hope and expect that the POTUS is not actually in charge of making these decisions. I hope there is not a big table with model ships and a little rake that he uses to move them around the globe. That would be a terrible system of governance. Surely it comes down to someone else had the job of making the decision and did not want to offend the boss, or something like that. Which is effectively the same thing.

sexobon 09-28-2017 11:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 996395)
... I hope there is not a big table with model ships and a little rake that he uses to move them around the globe. ...

I doubt he moves them around himself. He probably brings Ivanka as his croupière and she's like the Vana White of the command center.

Griff 09-29-2017 06:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 996395)
I should hope and expect that the POTUS is not actually in charge of making these decisions. I hope there is not a big table with model ships and a little rake that he uses to move them around the globe. That would be a terrible system of governance. Surely it comes down to someone else had the job of making the decision and did not want to offend the boss, or something like that. Which is effectively the same thing.

This is interesting to me. There was a big movement toward professionalism in the government around the time of the Teddy Roosevelt administration with examinations to weed out incompetence but we still have each changing administration putting their Brownies on top of professional organizations. Seats go unfilled or get Betsy DeVosed when the idea of good government is not on the agenda. The new administrators should reflect what the voters asked for in their president but let's face it, shit is fucked up and it's kind of on purpose.

Undertoad 09-29-2017 08:36 AM

Also, there was a naval base in Puerto Rico until 15 years ago but it was protested by the locals and some of the left until the Navy packed up and departed.

I'm not saying. Really I'm not. This is just background information.

tw 09-29-2017 08:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 996395)
I should hope and expect that the POTUS is not actually in charge of making these decisions.

Posse Comitatus Act, Federal troops cannot be deployed unless permitted by the President under Title 10. So the USS Bataan sat outside unused for five days. The president did not authorize Federal troops to deploy.

Same has apparently happened in Puerto Rico. President did nothing for six days.

"His (Buchanan's) headquarters exists 365 days a year, just for this mission," However he can do nothing until the president does something this simple - authorizes it.

Honore bypassed that law in New Orleans. He deployed his units on a training mission - a deployment to New Orleans. Because everyone knew that disaster was coming. Then his people were in position to be activated by a presidential order - that did not happen for five days.

Undertoad 09-29-2017 09:48 AM

I should hope and expect that the POTUS is not actually in charge of making these decisions. Surely it comes down to someone else had the job of making the decision and did not want to offend the boss, or something like that. Which is effectively the same thing.

xoxoxoBruce 09-29-2017 11:01 AM

I agree, somebody who knows what they're doing, and sees the need, should prepare the plan and brief the POTUS for a decision and the OK.

We've been hearing bad things about these briefing sessions before, but I'd assumed they were just potshots at Trumps style. Maybe not?

Flint 09-29-2017 12:53 PM

One side says the boat was sent early--in advance, the other side says the boat is sitting around collecting dust. And none of us are eye witnesses, none of us are in administrative positions to know which is true. Both sides could cite sources, but neither side will believe the sources provided by the other. The research necessary to confirm what we used to accept could be obtained from trustworthy sources, is prohibitive and inconclusive.

Information doesn't exist anymore.



Since the dawn of time, when we developed verbal, then written language, the printing press, the telegraph, magnetic disk, we've been building a civilization based on the exchange of information, as a reliable, actionable commodity. We had a good run, folks!

glatt 09-29-2017 01:47 PM

Hey folks, there is current aerial imagery of Puerto Rico over at NOAA. See for yourself what the conditions are. You can click on the layers icon to see imagery from different days this week.

https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/m...18.056/-64.824

For example, you will see cargo jets on the tarmac in San Juan.

xoxoxoBruce 09-29-2017 08:21 PM

Quote:

First, it got clipped by Hurricane Irma, a huge Category 5 storm whose eye passed just north of the island. That storm — which had ravaged several Caribbean islands — left 1 million people without power on Puerto Rico. By the time Maria hit, 60,000 people were still without electricity. That means there are many people on the island who haven’t had power for 20 days (Irma passed by on September 7).

sexobon 09-30-2017 08:15 AM

But, but ... that means people there can't recharge their survival smart phones. OH THE HUMANITY! :bawling:


(Kudos to UT for the meme.)

tw 09-30-2017 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint (Post 996458)
One side says the boat was sent early--in advance, the other side says the boat is sitting around collecting dust. And none of us are eye witnesses, none of us are in administrative positions to know which is true. !

USNS Comfort is now at 35.307 N / 75.039 W which put it about 40 some kilometers off Hatteras Island NC. IOW it finally put to sea about 10 days after it was desperately needed. There is no mystery about this response for same reasons why there was no mystery about who screwed up recovery after Katrina.

Texas and Florida did not have this problem. Road were available so that many resources, that did not have to wait for presidential approval, were immediately deployed. Puerto Rico can only be accessed by plane or ship. Airports needed immediately military assistance to open. So only the National Guard could do anything useful. Ports needed many impediments such as the Jones Act removed immediately. It took Trump seven days to even do that.

Assistance in TX and FL did not need presidential approval. Assistance most desperately needed in Puerto Rico did.

No dispute. The USNS Comfort sat exactly where honest news sources said it was. Only propaganda outfits, masking as if news, would have lied about what has been deployed.

After Irma, a cruise ship Norwegian Sky was sent (don't know by who) to the Virgin Islands to evacuate stranded tourists. They did not need presidential approval. Cruise ships took to sea without passengers to hide out in Cozumel.

BTW, the US Navy base was Roosevelt Road on the mainland of Puerto Rico. Vieques was a separate base on a different island. Used by the Navy for calibrating guns before deployment. Roosevelt Road and its airfield had been closed as a military base maybe in 2004; is only a National Guard facility and a small plane airport. Without target practice on Vieques, it had no purpose and was closed.

sexobon 09-30-2017 10:29 AM

Sounds like Puerto Rico is going to be more trouble than it's worth. We should gift it to Mexico.

Undertoad 09-30-2017 10:30 AM

No wai, we should at least get a 2nd round draft pick in return

xoxoxoBruce 09-30-2017 12:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sexobon (Post 996492)
But, but ... that means people there can't recharge their survival smart phones. OH THE HUMANITY! :bawling:

No matter, most of the cell towers were knocked out anyway, and if they weren't they may not have power. It also means you can't pump clean water or refrigerate food, and that's deadly for people who don't have your skills.

Pamela 09-30-2017 11:34 PM

The amphibious ships came first because there were no port facilities left. None. USNS Comfort requires a 900 foot pier plus some space, 100 feet wide and over 20 feet deep to dock. She is not capable of amphibious operations.

Now that a dock has been cleared and an ingress route safely mapped and open, she can sail. She stood down for two main reasons: one, there were no ports to receive her at the time and two, the governor of PR requested that she NOT be sent.

Imagine that. The President did what the Governor of PR asked of him.

And posse comitatus does not apply here. That law poscribes the Army and Air Force from being used in a law enforcement capacity. It technically does not poscribe the Navy or Marines from being so used, but each service has regulations with the same force. Posse comitatus does not apply to the Coast Guard. The President does not authorize their use either, it is the US Congress that must do so.

Here is the relevant section of that law.

Sec. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress ; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section and any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment


Now, the military MAY INDEED be used after a natural disaster to restore public order and enforce laws.

Here is that section:

The President may employ the armed forces... to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition... the President determines that... domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order... or [to] suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such... a condition... so hinders the execution of the laws... that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law... or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.


Sundance over at Conservative Treehouse wrote this up already and did a much better job than I did.

Undertoad 10-01-2017 09:09 AM

More at Bloomberg

Quote:

One side says the boat was sent early--in advance, the other side says the boat is sitting around collecting dust.
True fact: boat not sent early.

(Probably) True narrative: on purpose.

SO:

The true fact that the boat was not sent early was used to support the narrative that boat was not sent due to incompetence, or even evil.

The truth of the fact was used to support the believability of the narrative.

This happens over and over. We are only building and consuming the narratives we want. We publish these in the nation's great newspapers. This is a very dangerous time in history. It will lead to either war, or disco. Good luck to everyone.

tw 10-01-2017 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Pamela (Post 996532)
The amphibious ships came first because there were no port facilities left. None. USNS Comfort requires a 900 foot pier plus some space, 100 feet wide and over 20 feet deep to dock. She is not capable of amphibious operations.

Anyone can learn facts rather than be educated by talk show hosts and junk science propaganda. From Wikipedia:
Quote:

The USNS Comfort provides rapid, flexible, and mobile medical and surgical services to support Marine Corps Air/Ground Task Forces deployed ashore, Army and Air Force units deployed ashore, and naval amphibious task forces and battle forces afloat.
It is designed for military operations. That means amphibious - no dock required. It operates at sea during military operations. Even its flight decks support the largest military helicopters. Who created that obvious lie?

Extremists will say anything to pervert truth with fiction; to protect a president who makes Nixon's lies only look like fibs. Or is that news coming from covert Russian web sites?

Docks can be cleared in less than a day (not two weeks) by military amphibious forces. But docks were not trashed or destroyed. Only minor damage. No problem. Immediate clearing is what amphibious troops do.

Please stop reciting what extremist talk show hosts invent. Their audience are the gullible - not the honest or informed.

Need for amphibious ships was so desperately needed on day one that the USS Wasp was now deployed yesterday from Norfolk to assistant a task force that already includes USS Oak Hill and Kearsarge. Wasp is an aircraft carrier similar in design to the USS Bataan, Iwo Jima, and Kearsarge.

As Trump says, it is big ocean. That means these ships are easily and quickly deployed to disasters - but only if a president authorizes it. He did - six days too late. And only after Gen Buchanan was finally assigned - after Trump's many days of trashing of NFL players and coaches.

Also desperately needed were communication facilities. US military had them ready to go on day one. But satellite communication equipment was only recently deployed - after the president finally let the military deploy. One C-17 finally delivered communication - the 63rd Signal Battalion from George ... on 27 September. Finally began operations on 28 Sept - 8 days after the hurricane.

From the Chicago Tribune entitled "How Trump's weekend at N.J. golf club slowed response to Puerto Rico crisis" on 29 Sept:
Quote:

Trump did hold a meeting at his golf club that Friday [22 Sept] with half a dozen Cabinet officials — including Acting Homeland Security Secretary Elaine Duke, who oversees disaster response - but the gathering was held to discuss his new refugee travel ban, not the hurricane. Duke and Trump spoke briefly about Puerto Rico, but did not talk again until Tuesday, an administration official said.
Administration officials admit that.

Ignored is what Gen Honore noted. All that stuff could have been deployed on day one. "His (Buchanan's) headquarters exists 365 days a year, just for this mission." But no military commander was authorized for six day. Gen Buchanan got his authorization six days too late.

An obviously dumb president, from his Bedminister County Club, is criticizing Puerto Ricans of not doing enough to help themselves. At what point does this not become obvious. 85% of all problems are direct traceable to top management.

Pamela denies all this. It says so much about what has happened to America. Some are so entrenched in 'talk show reality' as to deny even what is obvious. USNS Comfort is designed for amphibious operations. It does not need a 900 foot dock. Please be informed enough to see through so many obvious 'talk show host' lies.

The president did nothing for six day. Now blames Puerto Ricans for not doing enough for themselves? Even Nixon did not lie this obvious and oblivious. USNS Comfort does not need a dock. But its needed a president to authorize assistance. This one is as dumb as George Jr. Lies more than Nixon. Reality is difficult when extremist talk shows say something completely different.

xoxoxoBruce 10-01-2017 10:33 AM

I figure Captain Jerry Hendrix, at UT's link, knows more about this shit than we do. Both what has/is going on, and what should have/be happening.

Don't trust the media because they have an axe to grind? If that's true, how are bloggers with an obvious axe to grind to be trusted?

[Rick Nelson] You can't trust anyone, so you've got to trust yourself. [/Rick Nelson]

sexobon 10-01-2017 11:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 996534)
... The true fact that the boat was not sent early was used to support the narrative that boat was not sent due to incompetence, or even evil.

The truth of the fact was used to support the believability of the narrative. ...

That's how propagandists work. That's why it's called propaganda and not just lies. That's why the credibility of a source can be low even though it can cite facts. Their facts are cherry-picked to support a predetermined outcome around which the narrative is based. You won't find obvious lies. You have to look for the lies of omission or else you'll be misled. Some people learn how to structure propaganda early in life. They've had someone to learn it from and use it regularly thereafter. If they repeat it often enough, they may even come to believe themselves. That's when they start to think that they're always right - Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!

Flint 10-02-2017 11:32 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 996534)
This happens over and over. We are only building and consuming the narratives we want. We publish these in the nation's great newspapers. This is a very dangerous time in history. It will lead to either war, or disco. Good luck to everyone.

I agree 100%. I see it happen all the time.

I see this method being used by people I don't agree with, to promote things I believe are harmful for society. And when I see the people whom I agree with use the same method to promote things that I believe are beneficial to society I recognize that as the same problem.

When I see Trump decrying "Fake News" I know that there is a kernel of truth people can identify with --the facts aren't fake, the narratives may not even be fake, they're just not news. He should call it "Not News" but of course he'd have to pay royalties to Undertoad.

It's easy to make a bunch of grand-standing monologues about what's wrong with society--generally "the ignorant masses" or a "failure of the education system" or "being manipulated by Koch Brothers/Soros"--but it's all of us, participating in this new system of information distribution and not knowing how to use it ethically or to promote healthy goals--because changes in technology are happening so fast.

It's easy to say if we could just slow things down and listen to the distress signals from the nerds and intellectuals, we could concentrate more on substance, less on packaging, and make more thoughtful decisions. But that's never really going to happen, is it?

They said this about newspapers, they said this about television, but aren't AI-driven algorithms that have database access to every detail of every person's life--and use it to target us on personal devices--something different than just a new media format?

xoxoxoBruce 10-02-2017 11:56 AM

Yes it's different, way different.
I was looking for a set of tires so I Googled, found what I wanted and bought them, case closed. But for the next 7 or 8 months tire ads popped up at all sorts of sites, not just tires but the brand and model I was looking for, so not a coincidence.

TV never did that, Newspapers never did that, this is a whole new ball game. That sort of personal targeted information isn't just available to retailers, it's available to researchers, political manipulators, the NSA, and anyone who will pay for it. Soylent anyone?

Clodfobble 10-02-2017 12:56 PM

Here's the thing, though--that personalized information is honestly much less useful than people think it is. Case in point, you already bought tires. Throwing tire ads at you was less effective than throwing them at random strangers who might or might not have needed them, because you definitely didn't need them anymore. So they were banking on the possibility that you had browsed, failed to make a decision, and then were going to circle back months later? Data mining companies have pulled one over on the retail companies, because real people don't actually shop that way.

Flint 10-02-2017 01:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 996580)
Here's the thing, though--that personalized information is honestly much less useful than people think it is. Case in point, you already bought tires.

Hang on a second there. I shop online quite a bit --mostly browsing, researching, and occasionally making a purchase. Which means all my devices (not just the one I browsed on) are now littered with pretty pictures of things I probably want to buy, with links back to places where they can be purchased, easily and within minutes.

It doesn't force me to buy something, but it's as close to holding a lit match to a can of gas as they've come so far.



Anyway, I was talking about "dark ads" and news stories / headlines / photos being displayed differently to different data-mined groups --as powerful a use of money to purchase political opinion* as I think we've ever seen. Way more effective than a totalitarian authority enforcing one single, approved message.

* by altering what we perceive as reality

Undertoad 10-02-2017 01:28 PM

It is different.

Also hugely different is, now the newspaper knows what everybody is reading. What a surprise to some of them...

Every website owner out there knows what headlines we are clicking on. Every writer knows which articles got them readers. Every person knows what got them likes, retweets, favorites.

Flint 10-02-2017 01:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 996586)
Every website owner out there knows what headlines we are clicking on. Every writer knows which articles got them readers. Every person knows what got them likes, retweets, favorites.

It occurs to me that, in certain public arenas, the study of why humans behave in certain ways may be replaced in necessary practice by the certainty that we simply know exactly how they behave, devoid of any need for, or even desire for having an explanation. This would dovetail with the rise of atheism--we'd simultaneously disbelieve any larger force is at play in the universe, AND within the individual.

Clodfobble 10-02-2017 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint
It doesn't force me to buy something, but it's as close to holding a lit match to a can of gas as they've come so far.

But has it actually worked? I think it's got the allure of making you (and retailers) think it works--I mean it must work, right, because it's so insidious--but have you ever actually clicked one of those ads and bought the thing you were thinking about buying?

We're all too jaded for ads now. We have plugins to make them disappear on our browsers, and DVRs to skip them on our TVs. The only things that work these days are 1.) ads that are so unusual, they generate buzz as creative works on their own, and 2.) the ads we don't know are ads--news stories and political framing, like you said.

Flint 10-02-2017 02:41 PM

I have clicked on the ads because I know they are a link back to the sites where I like to browse/research stuff. Like, "oh yeah, I was shopping components for a half-finished project.. thanks for reminding me, pretty pictures of things"

xoxoxoBruce 10-02-2017 11:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Clodfobble (Post 996580)
Here's the thing, though--that personalized information is honestly much less useful than people think it is. Case in point, you already bought tires. Throwing tire ads at you was less effective than throwing them at random strangers who might or might not have needed them, because you definitely didn't need them anymore. So they were banking on the possibility that you had browsed, failed to make a decision, and then were going to circle back months later? Data mining companies have pulled one over on the retail companies, because real people don't actually shop that way.

True, they were wasting their time with me, but I suppose some people will be looking in the summer for tires they won't buy until fall/winter weather when they predict they'll need them. I suspect that a pretty small share though. They didn't circle around with me it was continuous though varied in intensity. I suppose if they caught wind of me searching for something else they may have given up on the tires. Of course I'm using the tires as an example, they've done it with other things.

Hmm, maybe I should do a porn search? ;)

Undertoad 10-09-2017 05:36 AM

OK, so it turns out USNS Comfort has helped 75 people doing hospital-type stuff, after two hospitals lost emergency generators:

http://wtkr.com/2017/10/07/usns-comf...n-puerto-rico/

Quote:

Comfort has treated 75 patients ranging from six months to 89 years in age and performed numerous procedures such as gastrostomy tube placement, colectomies, sacral-decubitus ulcer debridement, as well as treated for wounds, hernias and pneumonia.
And that's a job well done.

Helping these 75 people required...

Comfort is a seagoing medical treatment facility that currently has more than 800 personnel embarked for the Puerto Rico mission including Navy medical and support staff assembled from 22 commands, as well as over 70 civil service mariners.

She surely would have helped more people if she were there earlier; but, okay, that's a huge staff; and it turns out mobilizing 800 personnel from 22 commands takes a few days. and figuring out what you really need is hard as well.

Because in this case, as of what we know now, what was actually needed was two big-ass working emergency generators. And 2% of the fuel needed to get Comfort to P.R.

Millions upon millions have been spent to float this oil tanker to the islands with full medical staffs instead...

Ah hindsight!

Flint 10-09-2017 12:11 PM

Lots of information there, but it doesn't tell me whether I'm supposed to be mad at Democrats or Republicans. "Stuff is hard to do" isn't something I can boycott. Also, something about mansplaining.

tw 10-09-2017 08:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint (Post 996970)
Lots of information there, but it doesn't tell me whether I'm supposed to be mad at Democrats or Republicans.

Solutions always start by breaking a problem down into parts. Then discussing each part separated.

For example, BBC routinely noted one problem. Americans put their electric wires on poles. We spend massively on defense (which is larger than a next five militaries combined). And few resources into infrastructure.

This problem made even worse because Puerto Rico is an island. Other states (ie FL) get assistance automatically from power utilities even in New England. No other state can send such assistance without Federal government cooperation.

Best was to put all AC primary wires underground. Install cell phone towers that can survive what must exist and will happen even more often in that region - category 5 storms.

TX, FL, LA, etc got most assistance without Federal government intervention. That is impossible in Puerto Rico. Unfortunately they installed an infrastructure that assumed they were part of the continental 48 and that the president would authorize assistance.

An example of one problem. Who do you want to blame? America that now wants to get involved in or instigate all wars? A country that still does not install robust infrastructure? Top politicians who assumed what works in FL will also work in Puerto Rico?

Time to avert a disaster in 10 years must be implemented now. Did we learn from a near zero hurricane called Sandy?

xoxoxoBruce 10-09-2017 10:32 PM

Should PREPA give everybody power, or half(maybe less) the people robust infrastructure power with the funds they have to work with.

Wiki says
Quote:

As of 2014 the authority carries liabilities of $10.1 billion USD against assets of $6 billion.[24] It also operates with a deficit of about $354 million against revenues of $4.8 billion.[25][26] In terms of costs, $2.6 billion or about 58% of PREPA's expenses are attributed to fuel purchases alone while salaries and collective bargains represent less than 13% of the authority's expenses.[26]
See Trump is right, the government fucks everything up, free enterprise would have made it way better. :haha:

Undertoad 10-10-2017 08:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Flint (Post 996970)
Lots of information there, but it doesn't tell me whether I'm supposed to be mad at Democrats or Republicans. "Stuff is hard to do" isn't something I can boycott.

One problem is that there is a great urge to criticize Trump about every single thing, when he only deserves it about 90% of the time.

sexobon 10-10-2017 10:15 PM

90% and he doesn't even have a MBA ... impressive!

xoxoxoBruce 10-10-2017 11:32 PM

No, but BS in economics, which sounds about right.

tw 10-11-2017 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 996997)
No, but BS in economics, which sounds about right.

He graduated from the Wharton School. But only with a BS. Tillerson was educated as an engineer. Which one would win that IQ test?

xoxoxoBruce 10-11-2017 09:57 AM

You say only a BS, but he's proven to have a lot of it.

tw 10-12-2017 07:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 997007)
You say only a BS, but he's proven to have a lot of it.

An average IQ is 100. Can he count that high? Or does he get distracted too quickly?

sexobon 10-12-2017 10:45 PM

According to Wikipedia, he can count to 3 and a half ... by billions.

xoxoxoBruce 10-13-2017 01:30 PM

Yes, tied with 19 others as the 544th richest person in the world. And to think, he started with only a $million and his mother's real estate company.
To be fair, I think most people could not do what he has done, even with that start. I know I don't have the stomach for it.

tw 10-13-2017 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 997073)
To be fair, I think most people could not do what he has done, even with that start.

Alphonse Capone is another.

xoxoxoBruce 10-13-2017 11:53 PM

No, the difference is Al Capone set up soup kitchens and took care of the poor.

sexobon 10-14-2017 08:40 AM

Only someone who can't learn from history would not know that.

Happy Monkey 10-17-2017 05:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 996959)
OK, so it turns out USNS Comfort has helped 75 people doing hospital-type stuff, after two hospitals lost emergency generators:

Here's one reason...

Flint 10-17-2017 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad (Post 996991)
One problem is that there is a great urge to criticize Trump about every single thing, when he only deserves it about 90% of the time.

I agree, and it's compounded by the fact that the deluge of distractions is intentional. And that every terrible thing is wrapped in a glowing PR pitch of being an awesome thing. So our ability to know what's actually going on is being pushed to the limits.

And it's not exactly throwing the baby out with the bathwater. If I had an employee that was 10% effective, don't you think HR would be working with me to focus on the 90% ƒuck-up rate?

Undertoad 10-17-2017 06:31 PM

HR is the founders, the company manual is the Constitution, and they put in it an approach that has permitted the union to survive many bad Presidents. They anticipated the 90%!

~

Warren G. Harding was the Donald J. Trump of the 1920s.

Conservative, hated the League of Nations and loved Prohibition. He was a womanizer who was unqualified for the job and admitted it.

His campaign slogan was "Return to normalcy" - an appeal to patriotism, i.e, let's end all this progressive nonsense, and stay out of all that European crap! Truly the "Make America Great Again" of its time. (Although, it is pointed out, normalcy was not an actual word.)

Once he won, which was pretty much by accident -- he proceeded to play golf, have sex with his mistress in White House closets, and make deals with all his buddies to make them fortunes via the US Treasury. He limited immigration, and wanted tax cuts for the rich...

By some good fortune he died in the middle of his term.

Did it matter, to the overall state of the country - no. The decade during and following his Presidency was the "roaring twenties", a time of unprecedented economic growth and cultural change.

Flint 10-17-2017 07:50 PM

Quote:

a time of unprecedented economic growth
Yes, great times. Rich banker in the Treasury, dropping national debt, and three awesome tax-cutting bills in 21, 24, and 26. Everything was coming up aces! ..until an unexplained worst ever thing happened in the stock market in 1929, and.. the next entire decade was.. a little rough. But probably no cause and effect there.. Go Go Roaring twenties!

Undertoad 10-17-2017 08:17 PM

Nevertheless, you'll barely find Harding on the page.

Flint 10-17-2017 09:04 PM

Ah, well. Then we're probably fine.

After all, the stock market is on an unstoppable--record setting-- upward trend.. What could go wrong?? Go Go tax cuts for the wealthy!!

xoxoxoBruce 10-17-2017 09:58 PM

"It is a great advantage to a President and a major source of safety to the country, for him to know that he is not a great man."- Calvin Coolidge


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