Drunks
 

It was a slow day at the Bates today, so I wrote out the following which I have been thinking about for a while. Its pretty long, but for what its worth, here it is:

The Bates Motel is conveniently located on Main Street, kitty corner to the City Park and only a few blocks from downtown. In addition, there is a liquor store right across the street from the motel, plus another liquor store about one block west on Main. This makes the Bates the first stop on many a drunkard’s progress through Cortez - especially on cold nights.

The town of Cortez and, thus the Bates Motel, is located within only a few miles from two major Native American reservations - that of the Ute and that of the Navajo. The Ute reservation is perhaps 20 miles from Cortez, making this town the closest place for Utes to come to get liquored up (no alcohol is sold on the rez). The Navajo Reservation (which the Navajo firmly call the “Navajo Nation”) is vast and encompasses land in Utah, Arizona, and New Mexico. Navajos have the choice of going to several near-by towns for their peach brandy fix, but Cortez is always a favorite destination.

It saddens me deeply that such once proud people have been so ravaged by alcohol. In my mind, alcohol is one of the worst things that the Europeans have spread among the Native Americans. Alcohol comes in a close second to small pox contaminated blankets in my book. And alcohol takes a far worse toll on Indians than it does on white people. Native Americans seem to become addicted more quickly, the alcohol impacts them more deeply, and few ever seem to recover. They are often doomed to die an alcoholic death at a comparatively early age.

Therefore, our drunks are not just any old partiers - to the drunks who show up here, alcoholism is a profession, and they work hard at perfecting their skills for the job. This means that we often get would-be guests stumbling into the office so drunk that they can barely stand or even speak. It may take some repeating, but once the word “no” finally makes it through the ethanol barrier in their brains, they will generally lurch back out into the night without too much protest - they have many motels left to try, after all. If everything else fails, they can always pass out under a park bench and die of exposure. It happens often here.

The worst drunks that we end up dealing with are the ones who show up at the desk sober. Or they have a friend who is sober at the moment come in and sign for a room for the two of them. After signing in - as meek as lambs and as charming as they can be (sober Navajos can be extremely charming and I fall for their act every time) - it takes them approximately 5 minutes to go across the street and procure several bottle of apricot brandy. They sneak their stash into their room and drink the first bottle in a single gulp. After about two minutes, the first wave of alcohol hits them. They then spend maybe 6 to 7 minutes passing the second bottle back and forth among each other until they finish that. It takes precisely 14 minutes from checking in to achieve a state of total snockerdom.

At this point our now very drunk guest(s) realize that they out of alcohol and its still only 5:15 pm. In a state of panic, they stumble out of their room for another trip to the liquor store or else a stint of panhandling if they’ve run low on cash. Invariably, they leave their room key laying under the bed in the room. The door locks automatically, and they can’t get back in. Some have enough brain cells left to do the obvious and ask at the desk for a spare key upon their return.

Then you have the ones who go berserk when they discover they can’t get back into their room. They try to break down the door. They get crafty and try to crawl in through the bathroom windows which are located on the wall in the back of the motel where we can’t see them. Invariably they break the window plus the screen in the process. One guy tried to break in through a very small window in the laundry with his bare hands(the laundry was 12 doors down from this individual’s room). He was mean and crazy and strong. I now carry mace after my encounter with him.

Traditionally, the Ute and the Navajo were implacable enemies and some things never change. Therefore, if a Ute who has lost his room key spies a Navajo in the parking lot, this is an excuse for a brawl which only ends when the police finally arrive and one or both combatants are hauled off to the county jail to sober up and meditate upon their sins.

Some drunks actually remember their keys, go back to their room for the night, strip off all their clothing, and pass out. They are still passed out when housekeeping knocks on the door in the morning. Getting no response, housekeeping thinks the room is empty and unlocks the door. Surprise! Many drunks are still so inebriated that they can’t even walk. When this happens, we are forced to give them a free room for half a day or so before rolling them out into the street and watching them stagger off.

I have never had to deal with so many drunks in my life as I have this past year. Its depressing beyond belief. Its like watching untreated cancer patients wander around suffering the symptoms of their disease with no treatment available.

I respect the Native Americans - especially the Navajo. It breaks my heart to deal with the carnage I encounter with almost daily. I loathe my job for more reasons than one.

What a great piece of prose, Sam.

Absolutely some people are pre-disposed to certain things and I don't know or want to comment on those genetics but alcoholism is so prevalant among Native Americans. I don't know if this is biology or dealing with the subjugation of a people who were once so strong.

A night for you...ugh, I can't imagine.

Working where I work, I see the gamut of some messed up in one way or another people. But they're not drunk, usually. ;) Well, I have had students who reeked of weed, and the occasional drunkish one, but this isn't the norm.

However, we did have a student sit right there talking to a representative, and said student peed in the chair and then just left like nothing happened. This happened this week. I said if she comes back and asks a question (like, have I turned in all my paperwork?) whoever is helping her should simply reply "Depends." :lol:

Thanks for this post. Sheesh, you deal with some crazy stuff. And I understand the sadness.

Hang in there!

I am living proof that there is a treatment available.

What a horrible situation.

Alcoholism has affected my family relatively little, thank goodness. I had an aunt by marriage who became an alcoholic and died from it, but no one else has gone down that wretched path as far as I know. She was living in a community that has become notorious for heavy drinking and drug use over the past few decades. I hadn't heard anything about her for years, and then out of the blue, my mother told me she had died of cirrhosis.

I think the hardest hit communities are the more isolated reservations--the ones with the highest poverty rates, unemployment (30% in the Navajo Nation?), lack of good education, economy, etc.

There was a documentary on recently about conditions and alcoholism in Pine Ridge...incredibly sad.

Good for you! Alcoholism can be extremely hard to overcome. I have been staying sober with the help of AA, but I feel AA is not so effective in different cultures. Like Bill W., the founder, was a stock broker. The co-founder was a physician. Native Americans really aren't going to relate to people like that, and there are very few who attend local AA meetings.

How did you quit, Joe? If you don't mind my asking.

@ Blue: Unemployment among the Navajo stands at 42% and 43% live below the poverty level. Visiting the Navajo Nation can feel like visiting a 3rd world country.

Yeah, I have heard that it feels like that. Never have visited myself; the closest reservation to the Navajo Nation that I've been is Dulce in the Jicarilla Nation...which was quite nice, actually.

Some time back, I'd visited the Macy reservation (sort of, but not really, in the general vicinity of Pine Ridge), and it certainly did make me feel like I was in a 3rd world country. I don't know what their alcoholism rates are like, but the poverty was bad.

I watched a very enlightening programme about alcoholism on the Aboriginal settlements in Australia recently.

Again, these people had a proud culture and lived in harmony with the land as protectors with a complex social history. Now sitting in out of the way places built for them like open air prisons, cut off from their heritage and dependant on welfare. They are aimless, bored and even though the towns are officially dry, they simply walk outside the boundary and share grog in drinking paddocks.

(Note I am only talking about the alcoholic Aboriginals)

The people that sold booze to them knew exactly what they were doing. It was another tool of opportunism and subjugation. As another sober person, I think the change needs to come from inside the culture. I've been thinking about my own issue with booze and a lot of it had to do with adhering to beliefs that were not my own and didn't jibe with reality. My Irish Catholic baggage seems pretty damn light compared to what happened to Native Americans, they still live where they were once free, I can't imagine the pain in that.

Alcoholism has been a continual thread through out the generations in my family. Most of my family has been unaffected, but we have had some two fisted drinkers to give the rest of the family something to gossip about. I'm alcoholic as was my father and uncle before me. Before that I had a great aunt who was alcoholic. I'm sure there are more, but my family is big on cover ups.

Interesting enough, my father (and others in our clan) blame the alcoholic streak back to my great grandmother who just so happened to be Cherokee.

On the flip side of things, Navajo culture is complex and very fascinating. I love the members of the Navajo mystic pantheon - the Twin Monster Slayers, Changing Woman who turns winter into spring, and Coyote, the trickster.

Navajo healing chants are beautiful - they are called "sings" and may last for several days. Here is a bit from the 4th day of the night chant, first introduced to the white world by writer M. Scott Momaday:


Tse`gíhi.
House made of the dawn.
House made of evening light.
House made of the dark cloud.
House made of male rain.
House made of dark mist.
House made of female rain.
House made of pollen.
House made of grasshoppers.
Dark cloud is at the door.
The trail out of it is dark cloud.
The zigzag lightning stands high up on it.

Hastsébaka!
Your offering I make.
I have prepared a smoke for you.
Restore my feet for me.
Restore my legs for me.
Restore my body for me.
Restore my mind for me.
Restore my voice for me.
This very day take out your spell for me.
Your spell remove for me.
You have taken it away for me.
Far off it has gone...

As it used to be long ago, may I walk.
Happily may I walk.
Happily with abundant dark clouds, may I walk.
Happily with abundant showers, may I walk.
Happily with abundant plants, may I walk.
Happily on a trail of pollen, may I walk.
Happily may I walk.
Being as it used to be long ago, may I walk.

May it be beautiful before me.
May it be beautiful behind me.
May it be beautiful below me.
May it be beautiful above me.
May it be beautiful all around me.
In beauty it is finished.


The Night Chant is sometimes used for the cure of alcoholism, BTW.
Momaday titled one of his books "House Made of Dawn after that phrase from the Night Chant. Great book - worth a read.

Finally, here are some dancers from a pow wow I attended a while back. BTW, everyone there was sober that I could see, and the dances were beautiful and intricate. These two pics are of young women twirling around in the shawl dance. (quality sucky due to being uploaded from the Bates dinosaur of a computer)

AA doesn't work for everyone.

It doesn't really work for me. I use other methods to steer clear.

Some people act like meetings are akin to vaccinations - or like taking antibiotics. They say, "I'm having a tough week so I"m gonna double up on my meetings!" like that will PREVENT them from the drink. Never prevented me from drinking if i wanted to. I have left meetings and gone directly to the liquor store.

that said, whatever works.

AA horrified the atheist in me.

Despite assurances it was open to anyone regardless of race, creed, colour or belief, it started and ended with a prayer.

I had to sit through stories about how God put a chocolate wrapper in someone's path, so they knew that thet had to sober up for their 7 year old child.
Nice one God.
Guess you were just busy for 7 years.

Or how a white feather or a penny on the street or not stepping in a dogturd or all that and everything was what mattered.
And how you can only help yourself with God's help.
And how you need to give up yourself before you can acheive self control. It's not your fault but it's all your fault.
You have to do it yourself, but you can't do it without God.

Huh.

Alcohol might sometimes speak to me.
But God certainly doesn't.
Alcohol would encourage me to go to AA meetings, just so it could laugh afterwards at how disassociated I felt.
God probably ignores me because I don't have any children to sacrifice.

I'm typed out.

Substitute "higher power" for god.
Substitute Successful You for higher power.

I tried, Jim.
For someone who already has low self esteem it simply doesn't work.
I asked in two different groups if there was an atheist sponsor I could talk to and there wasn't.

It's a moot point now. My closest meeting is 20 miles away.

Difference between a drunk and an alcoholic?

Alcoholics have to go to those fucking meetings!


I hear ya, sundae. That was an issue when I went to those OA meetings.

12 step programs are clearly successful, but there are other ways. abdicating responsibility for your actions and placing your faith in fsm to save you ....meh.

Specially as FSM advocates pasta.

You know, I agree with you and with just about everyone else who commented on AA. I could never get the god thing. I've had some interesting things happen to me that make me wonder about synchronicity and Buddhist philosophy and stuff, but god? No. I go to meetings mainly to hang out with other people who are trying to stay sober. I need that camaraderie - especially in this part of the world. I met my closest friend in this town through AA and he smokes just about the most pot I've ever seen anyone indulge in. A big AA no-no, of course. I, on the other hand, keep the local pharmacy in business with all the meds my docs have prescribed me. Also, an AA no no. Any drug whether prescribed or not, is an invention of the devil and is to be avoided at all costs. So, I guess I'm a black sheep but at least I have another black sheep to keep me company. We both don't want to drink again, so in the end, its all good.

God put me here for this. God put me here for that. it's Gods blessing that i'm able to talk to you today. i've heard it so many different ways it would make you puke. or please you, which ever you may prefer. when i was locked up you should have seen teh number of jailhouse junkies that "found" God only to throw their Bible in the trash can on their way out of the walls unit (walls is the unit you're transferred to for release.) do i believe in God? yes i do. do i believe the Bible is the word of God? no i don't. read it cover to cover several times. The alcoholic has no one to blame but themselves. it's a control issue. moderation even. controlled moderation. am i an alcoholic? yeah probably so. but in order for me to fix me, it's not going to take God, it's going to take me. I have to be the one to make the decision not to drink. am I? no. i commend all those that have overcome alcoholism and have chosen not to drink. better person than me. pardon the pun here but "you can lead a horse to water but you can't make him drink"

My old roommate, a native from the Lakota tribe, basically ruined his life because of alcohol. He was valedictorian of his high school and one of the best wrestlers in the state of South Dakota and then proceeded to fail three out of four semesters in row halfway through college because he drank too much.

There was no help for him. He made me fully realize that people are not going to change unless they truly want too. No one else can do it for them.

It's much the same down under. :(

Eurasian people have been exposed to alcohol for at least 3,000 years, possibly several times that. Genetic vulnerabilities to alcohol and alcoholism have been deselected to some degree. Native Americans and Aboriginal Australians have only been exposed to alcohol for a few hundred years; they are more prone to alcoholism biologically.

But the main reason, I think, is the social conditions they grow up in. Much the same here as described by SamIam in the OP. Unemployment, low education, bad health, crime and prison etc etc. Hell, when your role models are drinkers, how could you avoid it?

Until 1967 it was illegal to supply alcohol to an Aboriginal person. Well, until 1967, Aboriginal people were officially not citizens, couldn't vote et cetera, due to certain provisions in our constitution. In '67 that was all thrown out, and it became illegal to discriminate against Aboriginal people. Which is a general improvement, but it meant open season on alcohol. Bad.

Now, many Aboriginal communites have declared themselves "dry" and there are laws that enforce this. People were making easy money smuggling booze into dry communities, but this is being policed.

This only works for remote communities where (a) there is no other source of alcohol nearby and (b) the community decides to go dry.

In wet communities, regular towns, and cities, there is no way to legally prevent Aboriginal people from drinking if they choose to, outside of the regular drunk-in-public laws.

If you guys do find a solution, please share.

I doubt that biology has much to do with it. As I'd mentioned upthread, my family has been touched relatively little by alcoholism. But social conditions are a big culprit for many tribes.

I've seen studies indicating tht genetics/biology are *a* factor, but as you say, social conditions (and personal life-management) are also factors. You're probably right that the latter are more inportant.

genetics can't make you start to drink.
genetics CAN make you more prone to addiction, and make your body process alcohol differently, in ways that make it affect you more drastically.

(raises hand)
I get in one beer what most people get in five or six.

Whereas I've had about half a pint of vodka in the past four or five hours and I barely feel it.

My mom never felt it either. But the rest of us did.

Behavior is more genetic/predisposed/hardware biological than we comfortably like to believe. We prefer to think that it's entirely up to us and we are a product of our choices and upbringing, but it's just not the case.

I think anyone who's raised a child or even a puppy from day one knows that there were aspects of that being that were there from the start.

I've noticed that since I began hormones, I am more affected by alcohol. I guess I'm destined to be a cheap date :D

I am not even close to being a drunk, let alone an alcoholic. I enjoy alcohol in moderation, as it should be enjoyed. My addiction was tobacco. I've been off the stuff for months now but the quitting process was long and hard and I still hear it calling to me. I am strong enough now to resist even in social situations although I have yet to attempt the ultimate: two beers in a bar with other smokers. That's like four triggers at once. Baby steps.

I've discussed this elsewhere on the site, but I quit drinking without AA or giving myself over to a "higher power" or whatever. I went from a 12 pack (min) of beer + blackout every night to sobriety for the last 9years. The day I decided to stop, I had 2 beers left in the fridge. I left them there for 2 years as a test of my willpower. I will never take another drink because I like it too much.

I quit smoking after 34 years the same way. Picked a date and quit my 2-4 pack a day habit. No drugs, no crutches, nothing except sheer willpower. It's been almost 3 years now since I had my last drag.

I have the same pfffffftttt attitude about religion when people say..."oh don't worry about it, God will take care of it". No, God won't. YOU either take care of it or external forces will. My belief is that a higher power doesn't meddle in our business, that's on us.

I think, when people have a big gaping hole in their lives, they will sometimes try to fill it up with alcohol. Some try to fill the hole with religion, or drugs or other obsessions/addictions. Either way, that hole has to be addressed or filled.

I feel sadness at the self-destruction of the Indian people you describe. Such a cultural legacy, being drowned in booze.

Solid thoughts guys. My issue wasn't so much with constant drinking, although the nightly scotch was headed for an issue, it was with bendering at random intervals. I finally decide I couldn't put the key in the ignition any more, since I couldn't seem to tap the brakes...

The Oglala Sioux tribe in Pine Ridge is suing beer companies...for $500 million.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/0....html?ref=food

I hope they win, so they can put the money to good use. It would give them the means to fund economic development, which I think would help dissipate Pine Ridge's culture of boozing.

Hi guys. Before I get started I want to emphatically say that I am not out to change any minds, or win anyone over. I'm just putting my views and experience into the discussion. I understand that my view is an extreme minority here in the Cellar. I have been mulling over this topic now since my last post here and for a long time thought I had said enough. I guess not.

I have been a member of Alcoholics Anonymous for just over 20 years now. I am definitely an alki. I would like to clarify a few things as I have come to see them.

The meetings and fellowship of AA are an outgrowth of the twelfth step of the program of AA. The program is not an outgrowth of the meetings. Meetings are not the AA program. Many people have this confused. The definition of an alcoholic is this: if, when you honestly want to you find you cannot quit entirely, or if when drinking you have little control of the amount you drink you are prolly an alcoholic. If you have an alcohol problem, the solution is simple...quit drinking! and be done with it. The requirement for membership in AA is only a desire to quit drinking...many people come to AA and cannot or will not stomach the outlined program, we don't have the right to deny any one admittance to the fellowship just because they don't like the program. What you do with the program is between you and whom ever. Parking your ass in a meeting and participating in the discussion is not the AA program. I wish I could count how many people I've ever seen who have gone, and go to meetings to discuss and participate in talking therepy and complain that AA doesn't work....or doesn't work for them. Seriously? I sat in a stick shift car for two months and talked about my problems ....and now I don't know how to drive a stick! Well, yea. So, yep we won't deny anyone admittance to the fellowship, and AA deals with and discusses explicitly the idea of God. To not tell this to new comers is, in my opinion kind of like with holding the truth of what we are about. If anyone can not or will not stomach that idea then my best wishes to you, sincerely. We don't have a monopoly on anything, we do have a program that is working just fine for us who practice the program and offer this as a proven solution to those who can accept it.

I know that I am heavily opinionated, even within the AA fellowship. I don't air my opinion very often outside of that fellowship. I truly believe we have a program of attraction and not promotion. I am joining in the discussion here for several reasons the first and formost is that I am a member of this small community that we call the Cellar. It used to burn my nads to no end when people would come to meetings, outright refuse to embrace the outlined program, and just sit in meetings and talk. And then complain that AA doesn't work. I now know that people who come to our meetings must be looking for something. So what if 70-80% if not more of the population of AA is not really practicing the AA program, most of what a new guy/gal sees is a bunch of people sitting around drinking coffee trying to figure out how to talk each other into not drinking, and passing on some pop psychology some of them learned in a treatment facility. I will say that a small percentage of us are really doing what is outlined in our text on a daily basis and it works great for us.

A very close loved one has been with the program for almost 15 years now. This loved one was offered a high profile big giant job in another city and turned it down because one of the things this person didn't want to leave was the support network this person has made within AA.

I don't want to, in any way, point out who the person is, so that's why no pronouns.

I credit that program with this person still being in my life, in all our lives. This person is a wonderful, intelligent, hilarious, giving, caring person...always had a heart bigger than anything. This person has helped numerous other individuals on this road, and sadly has lost individuals who just couldn't get there.

So I don't knock AA. It might not work for everyone but I see how much it means to this person and I am more grateful than I can ever say.

Thanks Joe. That was a wonderful post.

Joe, thank you. I respect you openness.

As part of my former employment, I had to attend meetings from time to time, and was often embarrassed about it. Although it certainly could have gone in another direction, I'm one of the people who made their peace with alcohol, can have a drink or not, drink for flavor, not for effect. What could I say other than I'm here because I have to be here, but I'm here to support you ... I know the buzzwords, the steps, but have never been a the position of having to work the program (not your program, not my program, the program, as it's said).

I support AA because I have seen it work for people that you would never expect it to work for. Because it gives structure to people who resist structure. And because the concept of a higher power works with the individual being in the middle, between that and ones powerlessness over the addiction, somewhere in that game of pushmepullyou, a kind of homeostasis results for folks that can keep the balance, in sobriety.

Oh, shit. I've had too much coffee and I sound like JBKlyde.

Thanks for sharing, Joe.

And Wolf, I like the term "the program" as its not just for alcohol.

8 years here. I haven't been to a meeting in many years.
I got the concept and work it my way. So far so good.

This is probably one of the most interesting threads I've read on the cellar for a while.

I don't have much to add except thanks for the discussion and to say that I agree with what Zen said about Australian Aboriginal culture and booze. It's a big problem, but then, so is general teenage binge drinking also. I'm watching my boys head towards the age group most effected by this habit and I'm very frightened indeed. This is part of the reason my husband and I have both put the brakes on drinking around the kids much. Just so that they have a better example from us as they head into these very difficult years of their lives.

I have to say that I in particular have been a bad example on some occasions. More than I really want to admit, but I hope that the fact that both Dazza and I can just not drink if we decide to, or that when we go out in social situations we don't have to drink, sinks in. Mostly I just hope that the kids will always be open to discussion on the subject as they are now, and believe me, the problem is quite obvious among their peer group already.

<quotable>

I am a veteran of many, many meetings and Joe's description of AA and the AA program is excellent. I'm afraid I've always been the red haired step child around AA, because I do not believe in a personal God. For a long time I thought this was the only way I could get and stay sober, so I desperately tried to force myself into a belief. I tried for years. In the end, I gained a lot of spiritual knowledge and experienced some interesting events, but I cannot force myself into believing something which goes against who I am. Going to meetings helps me, though. I've been sober this time around for almost three years. The thought of picking up a drink has no appeal. As Joe said, the only requirement for AA membership is a desire to stop drinking. I'm a big fan of whatever works for each individual who wants to stop and does.

Agreed

Doubly so!

Joe, I don't mean to knock AA. I'm not talking trash about it.
I simply cannot commit to the 12 step programme due to my atheism. IS that stronger than my desire to quit? Well it seems so. I wouldn't ask someone with deeply held religious beliefs to give them up in the name of treatment; I know they would simply hold their beliefs in private and live a lie.

It seems to be universally the go-to place for anyone who is really committed to sobriety. And there are so many high profile advocates. So of course I feel frustrated that I am excluded from the outset. I don't blame AA, I'm just explaining why it's not a solution for me. And not even something I can work on.

This is not a position of superiority, just the musings of an outsider.

Aw heck, I know you ain't knocken AA, your just talking about your experience and what you can put up with, with your beliefs.

Either way, I think AA is a great start for someone who finally realizes they have a problem. Whether they stick with it or do something else, at least they realize they are not alone and that there are others in the same or a similar place.

I sincerely doubt it. I'm not really familiar with the 12-step program, but when you are down and you know there is no god, it is not in the least bit helpful to have that rammed down your throat. It's like people see that as a bigger problem than your recent bereavement/alcoholism/whatever. But true atheists are probably a very small minority of society and I can see who those who are not cannot possibly understand that it is not something you can tolerate for the sake of getting "help".

I'm quite surprised there aren't AA groups who have taken the belief part out of it, though?

Wouldn't be AA. Would be like taking the flour out of the cake.

To be sure we are happy when people who cannot accept what the AA program is about find an answer somewhere else. Like I said we do not have nor do we want a monopoly on recovery from alcoholism. We just have a way out that works for us.

So there are groups that have taken the God and belief part out. They are no longer AA groups mostly because the AA programs aim is to have a spiritual awakening and on the outset we make a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understand God. We also believe there is no middle of the road solution within this framework. But, again if rational recovery is working for you and others we are very happy about this and wish to brook no controversy over how a particular individual gets and stays sober. I know that rational recovery, thought replacement therapy to name a few did not work for me while the AA program does. Tolerance of other views and beliefs are attitudes which make us more useful to others and this is really the gist of our lives today.

We never want to deny anyone membership in the AA fellowship based on being an atheist, we are not going to re-write the program on the same notion either. The door swings both ways for all of us. There are many programs and manners of living for atheists as well as others who do not like the AA program. If you are able to moderate or quit drinking using these methods our hats are off!

Never! Any group that does that is no longer AA nor even a 12-Step group. "Step 2: Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." Step 3: "Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him."

You don't pull on superman's cape, and you never ever change ANYTHING about the Steps.

That "God as we understood him" phrase is AA's attempt to offer members an escape clause - ie You are not required to believe in the Christian god or the Jewish one or whatever. You can make up your own higher power if you want. You could even use the Flying Spaghetti Monster just as long as you considered it more powerful than you. I knew one person who used his dog as his higher power, but everyone in the group thought he was a weirdo - the AA member, not the dog.

Their is something called Rational Recovery (RR) that rejects the idea that god or a higher power is required for recovery. RR was started by a guy named Jack Trimpe who had a major resentment against AA. The Rational Recovery program is printed in the "Small Book," as against AA's "Big Book." And so forth.

Whatever.

I may be missing something, but my recollection is only that you 'believe' in a power higher than yourself. Who's to say what that power is? It could be something as simple as the love of another: your child, your parent, your spouse.

I don't know what I believe but I know that there are powerful things out there, otherwise why is this collection of bits and pieces and molecules and dust a feeling entity? Thinking makes sense. Feeling never has nor will make sense.

There's always something to live for, and AA, for those who work the program, is their way of choosing to live.

At my worst I had nothing to live for except the fear of an unsuccessful suicide.
I did try to believe in a power higher than myself, but I had no hook to hang it on.
Going to meetings where everyone else's hook was a definite deity - and one who intervened in matters in obscure ways which to me screamed coincidence - just alienated me.
Abstract ideas are all well and good, but when you come down to the meat and bones of AA they just don't cut it. At least none of them did for me.

Again - as Joe says - I was not deliberately excluded.
But the person I am means I simply cannot follow the 12 Step programme as it is set out.
No-one said I wasn't wanted, but it wasn't possible to commit. And for AA to work you really have to commit. Alcohol is a hard thing to quit and something I haven't managed yet.

And yes, as Sam suggests, my external power could be FSM.
But as she implies, I'd have to have belief in order to do so.
FSM is just cute shorthand to me.

IM, it must be a personal power that takes direct interest in you, your sobriety and your life. That's the biggest catch for me. Too many truly awful things go on in this world and have gone on in the past. I cannot turn my life and my will over to a higher power which allowed the holocaust, for example. It just does not compute.

You can make cakes without flour. Just sayin'...

They taste pretty good too.

This exclusion of dyslexics has to spot!

I don't recall ever seeing anyone keeping score of what you choose to represent your higher power. I don't know what you mean "personal" power. Personal power cannot be the love of your family?

Certainly, I know that part of the program is giving up the belief that you are so truly unique that the program isn't for you, couldn't possibly help you. You have to set aside a bit amount of egocentricity and pride to truly believe that you are powerless over alcohol or drugs, just like every other person in the room.

No, I don't believe it works for everyone. I do think that there are a fair amount of people on earth who are able to quit for a hundred other reasons, and I think that there are a fair amount of people who don't really want to quit and who like to think the rock they hit was the bottom...

I'm glad for those who conquer the demon in whatever way they can. For some the only way they can is AA. The only way they can get sobriety, and keep it, is to keep 'working it' as they say.

It seems that in this context the word "power" infers supernatural. It's human nature to be reluctant to surrender one's freedom of choice, freedom of action, to other people including friends and family. It's easier to submit to, admit to needing help from, interpersonal intervention by a supernatural power (real or perceived) that one has no control over. The love from/for other people plays a weightier role in situations of failure to thrive (morbidity) than failure to survive (mortality). Of course, the willingness and desire to do anything necessary to save one's own life must be there along with the realization that other measures aren't working. When it's the final option, these people would simply rather become indoctrinated than dead!

I gave up smoking and my kids and Mum were my 'higher power' if you want to talk about what motivated me to stay on the right path. If I felt myself wavering, I would just think about them, or go be with them and I would find my resolve again.

Really it was all just about my own willpower in the end.

I went cold turkey from over 1 pack a day to nothing.

Same here. In my case I was just fed up with the idea of being dependent from such a small, stupid object. Plus I started going regularly to the gym and after a couple of weeks was less inclined to smoke because I could feel the effects so much more while doing sport. All it takes is some (real) motivation. No book can provide that, as dorky as it may sound.

Yebbut, Ali & Salem, you did not commit to turn your life over to them (as your higher power) and accept that they could effect changes in your life that you couldn't yourself.

As both of you say, the bottom line was what came from within.
The Twelve Step programme is vehemently about what comes from without.

So to answer Infi, no of course no-one keeps track of what you are claiming as a higher power. Although if you have a sponsor (highly recommended) you will have frank and open discussions about all twelve steps and will be expected to name your higher power.

Personal power can of course be the love of your family, but it is a nebulous concept compared to the general idea that you have surrendered your life to an infinite power. If a member of your family blows up at you for no fault of yours, the hurt and rejection can impact your sobriety. On the other hand if you break the heel off your shoe, your umbrella turns inside out and there is a Tube strike, it doesn't mean God is judging you. You might feel it warrents a drink, but with willpower you will get through.

Yeah, that's a bit glib.
But that's what I heard when I went to meetings.
I cannot surrender to my family. I know them as flawed human beings also.

Not surrendering to family. Surrendering to the love, the bond, of family. That unconditional kind of love...no matter what your family might be doing or not doing: that mutual unconditional love.

I've been to meetings myself, both in 30 day rehab and after, and in my stint in the looney bin. (Oh yes, those were the happy times in my life :( ) I guess I never felt pressure to believe in GAWD, but maybe I didn't feel the pressure because I'd hoped I'd find it.

See I don't believe in the immutable power of love.
Not between people and certainly not in a family.

Which is why I consider AA a YMMV solution.

I'd just like to caution anyone doing the twelve steps ...
One of them (5 maybe) said something about admitting your wrongs to people.

For example, sharing with your spouse that you were repeatedly unfaithful for the past decade and that one of your kids might not be his ... Yeh - not such a great idea all the time. YMMV.
Personally, one of my issues with the plan is that the"drunks" get to "free themselves" from these burdens by transferring them to the offended person(s). Fuck that.

Sundae, I turned my life over to my kids the moment they were born.

I'd been abusing them by smoking.

I gave up because I had my eyes opened to the horror of losing a parent to cancer and realised just how bad my abuse could be if I didn't stop.

I think in just about every addicts life there's a catalyst. A defining moment when they realise their current behaviour can't go on, so they seek help in changing, or simply make the decision to change. Some clearly need more help than others, but it comes down to the same thing in my opinion.

I doubt I would be a non smoker today if I didn't have kids. I'd probably drink a lot more if I didn't have kids, and I'd probably still do drugs in one form or another if I didn't have kids.

My kids are my higher power. They keep me on the straight and narrow because I know that ultimately I'm the one person they really really need in their lives, and I can't afford to risk them losing that before it's time for the sake of my own fun and games.

My kids made me a better person. Without them, none of you would want to know me. I can promise you that.