--Increasing gender equality
What's that got to do with disipline?
--Research that shows the detrimental effects of physical punishment
Touchy feely research Inc ?
--Respect for psychological research
Respect for quacks that allow the obnoxious little bastards that rule the malls?
--Better educated parents
A bunch of parents that have had just enough college Psycology, all out of the same fucking book, that tells them they're fucked up because of their parents and they're not at fault.
--The number of child abuse cases coming forth (that originated back in the day)
That will never change and has nothing to do with discipline. That's sick shit that people perpretrate on weaker people regardless of age or kinship. That's a far cry from boo hoo, my parents spanked me because I was a rotten kid.
Heaven forbid we should mar Johnnys self esteem by making him responsible for his actions, We'll let him grow up thinking he can do what ever the hell he wants so he'll be happy. At least until he goes to jail or worse.

It's all that Dr. Spock guy's fault ...

But anyway, I have it on good authority (the authority being a supervisor for Children and Youth Services) that in Pennsylvania one IS allowed to strike a child with open hand on a fleshy part of the body.

Check individual state regs before proceeding in other jurisdictions.

Personally, I think that many children should be raised in a box, much like veal, and let out when they turn 18.

amen.

I was working one night and it was very busy and hectic. At the time there were 2 business managers, and we both had deals on our desks. The (at that time) senior business mgr was Rich. Rich was very, shall we say, ....fastidious. He looked like a banker, too. In fact, the salesmen all called him "Dreisdale" after the banker on the Beverly Hillbilies. Suspenders and all. All he needed was a monacle, and he'd look just like the monopoly guy. This doesn;t make a bit of difference to the story, by the way, just so you know he's pretty straight, and sober.

So, Rich has a customer in his office. A lady. And they're talking, and I can hear them through my wall, as our offices were adjacent. At the same time there are three kids creating a ruccus in the lounge area. And their father is losing his grip. The girl (7yrs old?) is going,"~~anoyyyyyyyyying! anoyyyyyyyying!, anoyyyyyyyying!" over and over to make her brothers go nuts. and everyone elses that can hear her. I was appreciating the irony, but dad didn't see the humor. So he's yelling at them and telling them that if they get out of their chairs again, he's going to break their arms or some other bullshit threat that only made you go," gee, i bet this guy abuses his kids!" in your head. It was uncomfortable.

At this point I had to go into Rich's office to get a new license plate out for my customer. As I go in, Rich and his customer look up at me and pause their conversation, and I smile at the lady and tell rich, " Call the cops, this guy's out of control." ~jokingly

And the lady says, " sounds like their father is having a hard time with them", or something noncommital like that...sounded like small talk to me....and I say, " yeah, but at this point it's too late to yell at your kids. you have to have laid down the law at home, or you can;t expect them to be cooperative in PUBLIC." Like I knew what the fuck I was talking about ( this is before I was a dad).

So guess who walks into the office and says," Honey, blah blah blah whatever, yadda yadda yadda. ( doesn;t matter, and i can;t remember) ?

yeah, the psycho father. I looked at Rich, who knew who the guy was, and had been staring at me with his mouth open about 3/4 of an inch, holding his breath the whole time I was talking to the lady ( I had my back to Rich). He had turned a nice deep strawberry red, too, which was highlighted by his massive balding forehead with it's little shock of yellow hair. he looked like a lit candle. The moment took about 3 days to go by as I calmly left the room without looking at either of the customers, and dove into my office pulling the door shut behind me.

I still think it was too late for the guy to be yelling at his kids.


man, i feel embarrassed again just in re-telling that.

Well see, that just shows his skill as a photographer to have the watermelon strategically placed. If he'd been running the cameras at the superbowl this whole business wouldn't have happened.

We've never spanked ours, but I have no objectino to a well-placed swat under appropriate circumtances, as seems to be the mainstream thinking on the thread so far.

Ok, I don't have any kids, but when I was younger, I had sometimes rather powerful contacts with my father's hand. "Take of your glasses" and I knew what was coming. I don't think that I have some trauma because of this...
It's important to make the difference between a disciplinary mseure and beating the kids because they are there and can't defend themselfs.
I also think a spank should be given immediately after the "crime" otherwise a child maybe can't make the link between the punishment and the fault.

http://maddox.xmission.com/beatkid4.jpg

Maddox has a different perspective about raising children.

My sister and I were never spanked. Instead, my dad managed to find a means of discipline that inspired fear and awe in most of the neighborhood children without landing him a child abuse lawsuit.

He'd lecture us at length. Early on it was sort of intolerable, because I'd have to stand around and switch from foot to foot to keep my legs from getting sore. It became a joke after a while, though; "will your dad lecture me if I don't take my shoes off before walking across this carpet?" Over the years he became more laid back, or something to that effect, and the lectures became shorter and more interesting. Now we regard him as a fount of useful and often obscure knowledge, such as the tax information we need to file our FAFSAs.

I suppose spanking would work in place, but I think the end result would be different. I can easily see myself resenting somebody who forced me to respect their strength and ability to cause pain. Letting it the child(ren) respect you for your intelligence and insight seems like a better long term strategy.

What? And lose out on the great "Wait until your Father gets home".:haha:

I am all for a swat on the bum. Sometimes you need to prove to a kid that you are the boss, and saying "I'm the boss" doesn't always cut it. I was spanked as a child, sometimes hard (if my dad was doing it) and sometimes not (mom). They always counted to 5 and if they got there then that was the result. Most the time I did as I was told by the time they got to 4. I can see no lasting damage done to me. I have a very distinct memory of being 4 and my mom patting me on the hand saying "this is a pat, now this is a spank" They were the same but man did I cry after the "spanking".

My older sister refuses to spank her children. Most the time her 4 year old daughter tells her no when asked to do something and since the law is never laid down, so to speak, that kid just runs right over both her parents. Her other child is only 16 months old so not yet old enough to tell her no. Seeing how her kids are, I would rather be a little too harsh on occasion then not harsh enough. I couldn't imagine having a kid that thought they could tell me what to do.

Skunks, your story reminds me of my Uncle, he never spanks his kids but reasons them to death. There have been times when he is telling them why they need to listen to him or why what they did was wrong, and I am thinking "oh heck, just spank them and get it over with, because this reasoning with them is a cruel and unusual punishment". You can see their eyes gloss over sometimes.

Oh man that was always my worst fear, my dad spanked hard so I always listened to my mom right away when she brought up the Dad threat.
I also hated the double punishment, mom would punish me and then when my dad got home she would tell him what I had done and there was a whole new round of punishment.

Actually this is forbidden by the law... You can't get punished twice for the same crime. Go and sue your parents!

Thats a common misinterpretation. You see Mom generally runs a criminal trial and after conviction you do your time. Dad runs a civil trial over the pain and suffering you caused Mom followed by restitution.

Aw man, at least your dad allowed you to take off your glasses! In my house, it was like, "Go upstairs to your room!" (usually after I'd come home from school after doing something bad). I don't think I have any trauma either, although I did harbor some ill feelings towards him, but that was years ago.

Sycamore and I disagree with corporal punishment, but I say that today's kids don't have a healthy "fear" of their parents. Some may say that's crazy to fear your parents, but let me explain.

When I was younger, my friends and I knew that adult eyes would be watching us in the neighborhood while we were outside playing. That made it very hard to get away with anything, but we didn't want to anyway. In other words, why PURPOSELY put yourself in trouble? Also, we thought twice about doing something stupid by thinking, "Man, if I do this, I'm going to be in serious trouble!" Why? Because we were afraid of what was going to happen to us if our parents found out!! I don't see or hear of that "fear" in today's children. I see kids being quite defiant, rude, and outright nasty to authority figures. They just don't give a damn.

A friend of mine has a 4 year old son. Sometimes, when I talk to her on the phone, and he's playing in the background and gets too loud, she'll tell him to quiet down, and sometimes, he'll say, "NO!" And she does...nothing. He'll keep doing this until she has to start with the threats of, "if you don't quiet down, I'm gonna..." but yet, she doesn't do anything (or at least, not that often). Or, he'll get into something, and his mother will fuss, and he'll start loudly shouting and having a fit. That boy gets away with murder with her as far as I'm concerned.

Whew, I wouldn't want to raise kids in this current world.

I have no experience in disciplining. I've only been on the receiving end. I'll tell you how I honestly feel about it, though.

I think that anyone who would rule through pain and fear is a vicious, sick dictator who has no compassion for the way their child feels afterwards. In every moral system that I have ever encountered, inflicting pain via torture is always evil.

Sure, it's a quick fix for the parent. They don't have to deal with the problem anymore, and by ignoring that their child is now in emotional agony, they can go on about their selfish business. But what have they actually taught the child? "Oh, he won't do THAT again! HA HA HA!" Fuck you! Inflicting pain is not love, it's evil. How about teaching them the reasons behind right and wrong instead?

Ugh. I'm so going to get flamed over this. In any case, when Sarah gets older, I've decided that I'l resort to spanking if I really have to, because there's a lot of things that I've already decided not to tolerate. Besides, violating a moral system is a not quite as bad as not having one at all. Discipline is important. But I'm going to try every other thing I can possibly think of first. It is a <i>last resort</i>.

uh.. sorry if I offended you. I have issues.

I think every parent has a right to decide what they want to do with their kids. If you don't believe in spanking then I say more power to you. I do know people who have never laid a hand on their kids, AND their kids are very well behaved. But I also know people who really do need to get a little more aggressive in their discipline (like my sister and brother in-law) and lay down the law. I think if you can have well behaved kids without spanking them, then good.

Now here is where I disagree with you. I never saw getting a spanking as ruling with pain and fear. Often times the spankings I received were no harder then a pat on the butt. They almost never caused pain, but the principle of them is what I respected. Also because my parents counted to 5 before delivering said spankings it really became MY choice. I could CHOOSE not to listen to them. This is a foundation for all of our society. There are rules and laws, and you can choose to break them but there are consequences. Thats all I see spankings as. For my children it comes down to this: I have laid down the rules, we (the child and I) know what they are and just as when they get older there are repercussions to not following the rules.

Just my outlook on it.