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xoxoxoBruce 03-19-2014 06:51 PM

Wildlife, living next to nature
 
Tyngsborough, Massachusetts, a town of about 11,000 on the New Hampshire border, 28 miles north and west of Boston. A family living there were excited to see a couple of Bobcats hanging out in their yard. So were the Boston TV reporters.

http://cellar.org/2014/bobcats.jpg

It's fun to spot something bigger than a squirrel or woodchuck in your yard, or even your town. Fox, Coyote, Big Cats, Deer, Moose, or Bear are pretty rare sightings for most Americans, and that's kind of sad.

Most of us live in pretty close proximity to each other these days. The majority of parents demand any ground the kids can access be made safe from Mother Nature's teeth, claws, hooves, barbs and spines. My god, the children, won't somebody please think of the children.
So I guess if the critters showed up they'd be tarred & feathered, then run out of town on a rail.

Hey look, a critter, take it's picture. I can't, the battery's dead on my phone... of course if the phone wasn't dead, the critter wouldn't have been spotted in the first place. :rolleyes:

orthodoc 03-19-2014 07:08 PM

I'd love to see bobcats. So far, just foxes (who scream in the most bone-shivering way during mating season ... ), a very occasional coyote, and prey animals. If I could keep the hunters off my bit of land, maybe I'd see a predator.

Griff 03-19-2014 07:28 PM

I've seen both a bobcat and a bear here. It is pretty cool.

Gravdigr 03-20-2014 04:34 PM

1 Attachment(s)
The bobcat population is on the rise. Used to be, if you saw a live bobcat, you counted yourself a member of a very exclusive club.

Around here, the increased visibility of the bobcat is not due to habitat encroachment. There's just more of them. Our bobcat season harvest records back this up. The 2013 season shows 3189 bobcats taken in KY. This number astounds me.

Pop caught this one on one of his trailcams several years ago:

Attachment 47083

Sundae 03-20-2014 04:50 PM

I'm just freaked out by the number of familiar names on that map.
Which is silly, because I've known since I was ?14? and first studied American history that that was the case.
Seems more real when it's on the Cellar though.

I've never not ever spotted even a squirrel in our back garden. That's Skwi-rell BTW, not Skwirl :LOL: I envy the 'rents and their soon-to-be-garden, because I bet they get squirrels there.
But before the housing estate grew up aroud us I regularly saw foxes (not urban, the ones that ate mousies) low-slung grunting badgers, bats which looked like wind-up toys flung into the sky, and rabbits grey as dawn. I miss the connection with nature and with the seasons.

Limey sees more - far more. I saw my first ever hare from her window.
And her whole world changes every month, but every month it stays the same.

xoxoxoBruce 03-20-2014 05:23 PM

Holy cow Digr, PA has grown from 58 Bobcats in 2000 to 1056 last year, but 3189 is mind boggling. :eek:

Oh, we harvested 40,109 coyotes which the state pays a $25 bounty on from a $700,000 fund the legislature set aside. :confused: Couldn't they just start a rumor the Coyotes are moving into the state to sell crack and let the thugs take care of it?

Also 343,110 deer, plus probably another 100,000 on the roads.
Issued 72 Elk permits which yielded 72 bulls, 14 over 700 lbs.
What surprised me was 3,510 bear, 58 over 500 lbs, and one at 772 lbs.

Gravdigr 03-20-2014 05:38 PM

A 772 lb black bear!! That's a Sasquatch.

KY killed 20 bears.

Clodfobble 03-20-2014 08:46 PM

Interestingly, we just today got a notice from our MUD about coyote sightings and missing/mutilated pets in the area. They claimed that shooting them just makes room for another one to move in, and they will instead be clearing underbrush and generally making the environment undesirable for them so they will go away on their own. I'm dubious.

orthodoc 03-21-2014 08:32 AM

Predators are necessary for a healthy ecosystem. We ruthlessly exterminate every predator we can and then lament that we're overrun with prey animals.

Undertoad 03-22-2014 01:23 AM

http://cellar.org/2014/wildcatdriveway.jpg

http://www.wcax.com/story/25028417/vt-woman

Quote:

Nancy Hill thought the cat needed help.

"It was below zero and I thought the poor cat needs to get in and thaw in warmth," said Hill.

Looking out her Greensboro window on Town Meeting Day, Hill said she saw the animal sitting under her bird feeder and sprang into action.

"I used to have a cat and I had a cat carrier," said Hill.

She grabbed the carrier, dashed out the door, fast approaching the feline and finding something wasn't right.

"There was quite a bit of blood and some fur," she said.

And as Hill got close, she quickly learned the cat was no kitty.

"Well once it got up, it went so fast, it was scary," said Hill.

Hill almost caged herself a bobcat.

Sundae 03-22-2014 03:09 AM

Glorious.

Gravdigr 03-22-2014 04:51 PM

We've all held a 2 pound kitten that went batshit crazy, and turned into a furious ball of teeth and claws and owfuckshitgetitoffofme. You can't get rid of one fast enough.

Now imagine if it was as feral as possible, and weighed forty+ pounds.

A healthy bobcat can bring down a half-grown deer.

:eek:

orthodoc 03-22-2014 10:22 PM

Not all of us ... cats get an undeservedly bad rap.

xoxoxoBruce 03-23-2014 01:52 AM

You've never had a kitten suddenly turn into a buzzsaw? :eek:

Gravdigr 03-23-2014 03:06 PM

The girl ain't lived...

orthodoc 03-23-2014 05:40 PM

So the buzzsaw experience should be on my bucket list? :lol:

I can't help it if cats just love me. Or maybe it's the fact that the kittens I bred were handled from birth and intensively socialized, and turned out to be adorable, people-loving balls of fluff.

Cats do have a different psychology than dogs. You can't attempt to dominate a cat and have anything good happen. Unlike dogs, cats will ramp up the aggression if you become aggressive. Their brains are just wired differently.

Cats are more like toddlers. Redirect, time out, remove from the scene ... they respond to cause and effect as long as it's not direct aggression that throws them into fight mode.

xoxoxoBruce 03-24-2014 10:04 AM

That's how kittens play, suddenly they're all teeth and claws. That's what they do with each other, and you if your handy when they get the urge. I've also had them climb me when I was leaning against the kitchen counter talking with someone. Those sharp little claws go deep, and anything you do to mitigate the carnage only makes things worse.

fargon 03-24-2014 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 895322)
Those sharp little claws go deep, and anything you do to mitigate the carnage only makes things worse.

That is when you stop playing with them.

xoxoxoBruce 03-24-2014 05:40 PM

Like a buzz saw, you can't stop fast enough, and you stopping doesn't necessarily mean them stopping. They'll stop when they get bored, but in the meantime they can do considerable damage. Older cats are a little faster stopping, but cat or kitten, if they've decided to climb you they won't stop half way without serious opposition. Of course once the claws are dug in, I don't want them to stop and think about it. :haha:

xoxoxoBruce 04-01-2014 09:01 PM

Drop Bears! Drop Bears everywhere!

orthodoc 04-01-2014 10:01 PM

You've been hanging out with the wrong cats, man ...

xoxoxoBruce 04-02-2014 02:03 AM

Normal cats, not raised like a bunch of pussies Canadian cats. http://cellar.org/2012/bwekk.gif

Carruthers 04-03-2014 02:36 PM

Peregrine Falcon webcam.
 
Not quite in the same league as big cats and wolves, but we do have a breeding pair of Peregrine Falcons in the locality. Their favoured nesting location is a cliff face.
We have something of a shortage of cliffs in Buckinghamshire but we do have an acceptable man made substitute.
For several years a nesting platform has been provided on the County Council HQ buillding in Aylesbury. It is an architectural abomination but the Peregrines seem quite happy there.

You can see the webcam here: Aylesbury Peregrines

Aylesbury's Peregrine Falcons Lay First Egg Of The Year

Should you wish, the architechural abomination can be viewed here: Street View.

Sundae 04-03-2014 02:41 PM

No! Is old enough now to be a folly (Pooley's).
I love it.
You have to learn from your mistakes, and to learn from them they have to be visible.

From miles and miles and many miles around.

Carruthers 04-03-2014 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sundae (Post 895857)
No! Is old enough now to be a folly (Pooley's).
I love it.
You have to learn from your mistakes, and to learn from them they have to be visible.

From miles and miles and many miles around.

Some years ago it was rumoured to be sinking.

I'm still waiting...

xoxoxoBruce 04-03-2014 05:52 PM

That's big plus for Aylesbury. Most large cities here have peregrines nesting on tall buildings. Like Aylesbury, pigeons supply unlimited food.

orthodoc 04-03-2014 08:55 PM

Absolutely. The Cathedral of Learning in Pittsburgh has a pair of nesting peregrines. A few years ago a second pair attempted to move in lower on the tower ... the first pair killed them. :(

But the original pair apparently successfully raise young each spring. There are local ordinances protecting them.

orthodoc 04-03-2014 09:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 895795)
Normal cats, not raised like a bunch of pussies Canadian cats. http://cellar.org/2012/bwekk.gif

Ha! Apparently you've never met any Canadian cats. We raise 'em wild and smart, feisty and opinionated. Canadian pussies are very difficult to tame, although utterly worth the effort.

xoxoxoBruce 04-03-2014 09:24 PM

Canadian cats? No. Canadian pussies? Plenty. Half my father's family live in the Kingston Ontario area.
However, your description of kitten behavior doesn't jibe with dozens I've raised or met, south of the 49th parallel.

orthodoc 04-03-2014 09:53 PM

You can only have met feral or poorly socialized kittens, seriously. Cats have to be socialized just like dogs. Imagine trying to cuddle up to a feral dog. Probably wouldn't go well, no? So why do we criticize poorly socialized kittens and cats?

Cats who are socialized from birth are immensely human-oriented. I've raised numerous generations; this is my experience. I've gotten breeding kittens from other breeders, and they were (with only one exception) never as well socialized as mine. I put the time in. Again, consider how much time we spend with puppies and young dogs. If you spend the equivalent time with a young cat, you'll have a loyal companion who loves you every bit as much as a dog, but is FAR more intelligent.

eta: besides: dogs can't purr.

xoxoxoBruce 04-03-2014 10:53 PM

You've raised generations of cats and never had a kitten cut you up? Bullshit, your memory is shot. Sounds like you raised generations of inbred retards, real cats don't do that.

It's not a matter of socialization, reread what I wrote. They're not attacking, it's the way they play. Unfortunately we don't have fur to absorb most of those sharp little claws and teeth. They scream at each other when play gets too rough, and will stop if you scream too, but by the time they realize playtime is over the damage is done.

They can do a lot of damage in milliseconds. Sundae knows, so does Fargon, and Gravdigr.

Some dogs can purr.
http://cellar.org/2014/pugdog.jpg

orthodoc 04-03-2014 11:34 PM

Pugs are pugly.

And sorry Bruce, but you don't know what you're talking about! My cats were not inbred; I deliberately crossed lines that weren't accepted by the powers that be. I took traditionals, who had major dollops of American Shorthair genes, and crossed them with moderns. I had intermediates that I bred back to traditionals, and intermediates that I bred back to moderns. I kept the best of all of the litters and worked toward an intermediate Siamese cat that wasn't 90 % American Shorthair and wasn't susceptible to the ills of the moderns. I bred shorthair traditional Balinese as well as longhairs. I mixed up the gene pools as much as possible.

It IS a matter of socialization. My kittens climbed the bookcases, and they loved to climb the 7' tall queening enclosure ... but they never, ever launched themselves onto me and left me bleeding after they'd had their fun. They followed me around the house, climbed all over me, and learned to obey quite a few commands. Just like intelligent puppies. Would you think it normal for puppies to attack you and rip your arm or leg to shreds? Not likely. Good kittens don't do that either.

Why are we arguing about this ... ?

xoxoxoBruce 04-04-2014 12:32 AM

Yeah, yeah, yeah, breeders always claim their widdle kitahs would never do anything bad, then release their hellspawn on unsuspecting children of the world. But anyone who's lived with kittens/cats, no matter how much they love them, ain't buying your bullshit because it has has more holes than a screen door. http://cellar.org/2012/nono.gif



...or nylon stocking in kitten territory.

orthodoc 04-04-2014 12:42 AM

Ah, but I am not the average breeder of widdle kittahs. I gave it up after a few years. I bred the best cats I've ever known, but I couldn't stand the breeder
'culture' and I didn't like selling the babies to strangers.

My contract stipulates that I'll take back any kitteh that people don't like/find inconvenient/any other reason. I've stayed in touch with my owners and they know it's true. I consider any creature that I've caused to be born to be my responsibility for life.

I call YOU on bullshit, Bruce. You haven't ever encountered a socialized cat. They are the best, the most loyal, the most intelligent animals around. I hear that rats are very intelligent, too ... but I prefer cats. Dogs are nice, and I've loved many of them. No dissing of dogs here.

xoxoxoBruce 04-04-2014 01:13 AM

See there, you claim "not the average breeder"... just like every other breeder. :rolleyes: Breeders have no credibility.

You can make all the claims you want about your special kitties, anyone with a history of cats will simply laugh in your general direction.

Why the fuck do we need cat breeders, they seem to do quite well on their own. Matter of fact, they'd overrun the whole damn town if we let them.

Carruthers 04-04-2014 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 895868)
That's big plus for Aylesbury. Most large cities here have peregrines nesting on tall buildings. Like Aylesbury, pigeons supply unlimited food.

I understand that a pigeon met its doom at the talons of a Peregrine on the ground in the town centre last year but most are taken in flight.

I've never knowingly seen the Aylesbury Peregrines although I've had the occasional sighting here five miles south of the town of what I assume to be other than the birds in question.
You know when something fast and deadly is about as even the corpulent Wood Pigeons are startled enough to get themselves airborne pronto.

Of possible interest is the work of the wildlife hospital at Haddenham.
It's known by the rather twee name of 'Tiggywinkles' but is formally known as the Wildlife Hospital Trust. A TV series was made about the hospital a few years ago and I think that it was also shown on PBS.

Anyway, here's the video. It won't win an Oscar but it is a gentle amble describing their work and worth a few minutes of your time.... I hope!



The Red Kites shown at about the 3.00 mark are wonderful creatures. Only a few native birds remained in the UK in mid-Wales until about twenty years ago when a reintroduction program was started.
Chicks were brought in from Scandinavia and Spain over a number of years in an attempt to increase numbers. When the birds were released into the wild those from Scandinavia tended to go home but those from Spain had a touch of maņana and mostly stayed put. Their numbers have gone from strength to strength and we even had one land in the front garden the summer before last.

Unfortunately, I once found a Red Kite that had collided with a power cable and severed its wing. The staff at Tiggywinkles expected it to survive as the wing was lost at the very point where amputations are normally made and it hadn't lost much blood. They have a large aviary for Kites that cannot be released and it was expected to have a future there. Sadly, it succumbed about ten days after I took it in.

xoxoxoBruce 04-04-2014 07:29 AM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Carruthers (Post 895918)
You know when something fast and deadly is about as even the corpulent Wood Pigeons are startled enough to get themselves airborne pronto.

Ha ha, I think if I knew this sumbitch was coming at me at... ahem, 389 km/h (242 mph on this side of the pond), I might be able to fly. :eek:

Carruthers 04-04-2014 07:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 895926)
Ha ha, I think if I knew this sumbitch was coming at me at... ahem, 389 km/h (242 mph on this side of the pond), I might be able to fly. :eek:

A bit like hanging... it concentrates the mind wonderfully! :eek:

(With apologies to Dr Samuel Johnson)

ETA: Keep going with the Imperial units, Bruce. I haven't been metricated yet.:):)

orthodoc 04-04-2014 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 895909)

You can make all the claims you want about your special kitties, anyone with a history of cats will simply laugh in your general direction.

I get it, I get it: you hate cats. No animal is going to be calm and loving around someone who hates it. I'm sure you and the cats are happiest staying well away from each other. It's win/win. ;)

xoxoxoBruce 04-04-2014 01:06 PM

No, you don't get it at all. I don't hate cats, I've had dozens of them, spent dozens if not hundreds of hours watching TV with one in my lap, and know goddamn well what a normal... and a few abnormal... cats act like. I kid Sundae that dogs are better, and do prefer them, but those Frankenstein cats you describe don't exist in anybody's world but yours.
So I :lol: in your general direction.

Gravdigr 04-04-2014 01:51 PM

I don't think Ortho has ever played with a cat. Or a kitten. Or she's confused as to what, exactly, a cat/kitten is.

Gravdigr 04-04-2014 01:57 PM

1 Attachment(s)
This is the animal we're talking about:

Attachment 47242

At the end of each of those four legs is a chainsaw, and just below the nose is a wood chipper.

This animal will happily claw out your liver and smother you with it.

Vicious, vicious little beastie.

Carruthers 04-04-2014 02:28 PM

It can be said without contradiction that, in this thread at least, the cat has been set among the pigeons.


I'll see myself out...

Gravdigr 04-04-2014 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 895926)
Ha ha, I think if I knew this sumbitch was coming at me at... ahem, 389 km/h (242 mph on this side of the pond), I might be able to fly. :eek:

I'd damn sure be trying! Or I might make like a mole - dive! dive! dive!

xoxoxoBruce 04-04-2014 07:11 PM

Simon knows...

Gravdigr 04-05-2014 03:53 PM


xoxoxoBruce 04-06-2014 01:56 PM

Elk

Griff 04-06-2014 02:00 PM

There is one in every crowd.

Sundae 04-06-2014 03:48 PM

There nearly wasn't.
Poor baby.

fargon 04-06-2014 04:23 PM

I have kept Cats all my life and have the scars to prove it.

Gravdigr 04-06-2014 04:39 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Cool wapiti vid, Bruce.
__________________________

Bees. On a Hornet.

Attachment 47282

orthodoc 04-06-2014 08:52 PM

2 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce (Post 895909)
See there, you claim "not the average breeder"... just like every other breeder. :rolleyes: Breeders have no credibility.

You can make all the claims you want about your special kitties, anyone with a history of cats will simply laugh in your general direction.

Why the fuck do we need cat breeders, they seem to do quite well on their own. Matter of fact, they'd overrun the whole damn town if we let them.

You, sir, are an asshole. Or have been behaving like one for the past week.

Attachment 47284
Me before my diagnosis.

Me during chemo, when my first queen slept with me every night. She followed me around the apartment, fussed at me until I got into bed, and stayed with me every moment when I was too ill to reach out and turn off the bedside lamp. 'Why the fuck do we need cat breeders'? We need good cat breeders because this is what I produced. And dozens more like her.

I assume you had a bad week, Bruce. You're better than the bullshit you doggedly pursued in this thread.

xoxoxoBruce 04-06-2014 11:05 PM

You've have a loyal pet, you bred/raised yourself. Big fucking deal. :celebrat:

Plenty of others have, or have had, loyal pets, like elspode, UT, Gravdigr, Griff and plenty more. You know what? They did it without breeding their own, without adding to the 2,700,000 that are euthanized every fucking year, in this country.

Oh I know, your special kitties go to special families, and you'll take them back if necessary.
Yeah, fuck that shelter cat that was killed because that special family bought your special spawn instead of rescuing them.

But you're little kitties are special, different, not like everyday cats.
Well, duh, that's what I've been trying to get through your thick skull. You have no idea what real cats are like, not a clue.

I'll put it another way, you've been spoiled with Blizzaks most people can't afford, so you've out of touch with how hazardous winter driving is for real people.

Oh, and bad week? No, I'm always an asshole, fuck you very much. http://cellar.org/2013/dog.gif

orthodoc 04-06-2014 11:42 PM

You think I have no idea about shelter cats, Bruce. You never bothered to inquire whether I've adopted any.

You're so sure I have a thick skull that you really believe I don't know what 'real' cats are like. From my experience with shelter cats, feral cats, and purebred cats, I can tell you things about cat psychology that you haven't the least clue about.

Yes, feral and shelter cats are fucked up, because they've been fucked over by the human species. They're a pseudo-somewhat-domesticated version of bigger cats that never trusted humans, and when they're fucked over by humans once again, why, they escalate to whatever it takes to protect themselves.

They're not dogs. They don't roll over in the face of aggression; they escalate. You will never resolve a 'situation' with a cat by becoming aggressive, even if that means just raising your voice. They aren't wired like dogs.

I've had dozens of 'real' cats, twelve-toed barn cats, black amazing mousers, cats that live in the barn, the feral queen who jealously guards her kittens. What makes you think you're the King of Knowing About Cats?

No, I'm not some Queen with Blizzaks who doesn't know the first fucking thing about cats. I've spent more time with them than you ever will. I've rescued more kittens than you ever will, I'm willing to bet. I don't buy the invalid argument that we should all give up on cats because so many fucking ignorant and greedy people refuse to neuter and spay. Should we just accept that the worst of random feral offspring are all that should represent domesticated cats and dogs? Or should we continue to push for spay/neuter programs and come down hard on the assholes who let unneutered/unspayed cats run around freely breeding?

Responsible people neuter and spay their cats (and dogs). I made sure my kittens were spayed/neutered. But you don't want to hear about that; you think everyone who is responsible with respect to cats is an elitist. No.

My cats stay with me when I'm sick. Cats are well known to do that.

Fuck you very much as well, Bruce.

eta: the crisis of shelter pets/kittens/puppies arises entirely out of the transgressions of ignorant, asshole people who are too lazy to spay/neuter their pets and who then dump them in the ditch, with random acquaintances, etc. These are HUMAN problems, not cat/dog problems. REAL cats are fantastic; abused PTSD cats, not so much. Why are you blaming them, or blaming me for producing loving, attached kittens who become lifelong companions?

Abuse the ones who deserve it: the asshole humans who abuse and abandon dogs and cats every day. THEY are the assholes who don't know what a real dog or cat is like.

And don't present yourself as the champion of all domesticated cats, while simultaneously presenting them as psycho-buzzsaw homicidal killers. I'm glad you and grav and others have taken in feral/damaged cats. You guys deserve a big high-five. You're good guys for doing that. But don't confuse having taken in feral/damaged cats with the 'reality' of most domesticated cats.
And, I'm done.

xoxoxoBruce 04-07-2014 01:23 AM

Well, I guess you told me. :mock:

sexobon 04-07-2014 02:31 AM

Had you been a cat, that would not resolve the situation ... you dog, you. ;)

orthodoc 04-07-2014 02:53 AM

@Bruce ... I've been told numerous times ... doesn't mean I don't love you. xx

@sexobon ... my cats have always been better than me. I yam what I yam ... ;)

Nirvana 04-07-2014 11:54 AM

Cat fight! ;)
Thread drift back to original ; There are coyotes here bobcats, foxes and almost every kind of water fowl. The latest are the sandhill cranes that stand almost 4 ft tall and make a hell of a lot of noise. My friend came to pick me up one day and could not believe the racket early in the morning. She was also treated to the sight of a bald eagle and I can't tell you how rare that is as well as some white swans and coots.
I came home from buying feed the other day and a pheasant was out near the road strutting around with his 3 ladies. These are all common sights for me. I am also pretty sure by the tracks he leaves there is a coy dog living near by we only see him once in awhile at night in the glare of the headlights. My cattle dog will soon be old enough to be out on his own and he will drive him off.

side note: I have had all kinds of cats the buzz saws and the couch ornaments, as far as my options go I like couch ornaments. [/ of opinion no one asked for]

Gravdigr 04-07-2014 05:57 PM

I will bet both balls and all of my cock that those "special kittehs" will claw you to fucking ribbons and smile the whole time.

And, Ortho, if you still refuse to acknowledge that fact, well, you're just refusing to acknowledge facts.

That's where all this started. We said "cats scratch" you said 'no they don't. y'all got poor people's cats. rich people's cats are purebreds and don't scratch." Which is complete and utter bullshit. We've had purebreds, paid for them, too. They scratched every bit as much as the adopters, and adoptees. That's because they're cats.

And everyone who has ever owned a cat of any kind is asking themselves why you refuse to admit that cats scratch. And laughing like hell at you.

My cats have always been companions, playmates, not home decor.

Allow me to ask a control question:

Do dogs bite, bark, and/or shit?

I need to know your answer to this question to better react to your assertion about cats.

Gravdigr 04-07-2014 06:03 PM

Quote:

Yes, feral and shelter cats are fucked up, because they've been fucked over by the human species.
No they are not. Some of them are. Just as some doctors are geniuses, and some are not. Some doctors can fix ya from a laundry list of symptoms, some couldn't pour piss out of a boot with the directions on the bottom of the heel.


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