Don't start that again!

I mean that no matter whether it is or isn't, it will be portrayed as America's fault.
In that regard we are such an easy target.

Fuck off. :lol:

1. Wikileaks information says

But that can now be delayed, because

2. Wired reports that

And how! The code was written to slowly change centrifuge speeds, so that nobody would notice until it was too late:

Could this also be why N.K.'s tests have fizzled so nicely?

3. Wired also repeats the earlier news from today about a Bond-esque assassination:

Ahmadinejad blamed it on the US. The rest of the world yawned.

similar deaths were carried out in the previous weeks against targets elsewhere in the world. I posted the links somewhere on here...
I was thinking that the others were sort of like practice for these two.

I'm sure economic incentive is lower on the list, if on at all, of reasons why Arab countries would want to prevent Iran from becoming a nuclear power. Being surrounded by nuclear power Israel and a probably soon to be nuclear power Iran is not making them feel secure. I'm just curious if there is any economic incentive behind it.

Good point. Despite how their politicians come off, I don't see Iran as a suicidal country but I do feel they could do some damage if they really wanted too. We could easily beat them one on one but I really doubt they would choose to fight that way.

Iran is already doing damage through their support of Al-Qaeda, The Taliban, Hezbollah, and who knows how many other terrorists.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/official-wi...ry?id=12263971

True, but this all a balancing act on a very unstable board. Yes, Iran is doing damage right now and yes it will be bad for US and other interests if they get the bomb. But we have no idea how they will react to an attack or if we can actually stop their nuclear bomb program and that needs to be taken into consideration.

If I had my druthers, I'd druther we not attack Iran.

The government had to know WAY before toppling Hussein ,that Iran was always,THE problem.

If I stopped to think about it, I could get very pissed off. I could see this could be a problem for our future,and the future is upon us, to waste our resources going on a wild goose chase, and have nothing, for when the time came to clamp down on Iran, but I am a simple minded person, and apparently great minds call the shots.

What, Bruce? Are you actually happy, rather than enraged, that the Mullahcracy exists and is a despotic oligarchy?

No wonder I think you need a better set of values than one that would permit you to write such drivel as that.

Totalitarian regimes do have one great value to democratic Mankind...

Yeah yeah, we already know you made up your mind when you were eight years old. :rolleyes:

30 years after the Iran hostage crisis, we're still fighting Reagan's war
Ted Koppel, in his usual insightful manner, reminds us how we got here. How many times we literally encouraged the Iranian relationship that 'we all but wanted'.

"She blamed what the six consider unrealistic demands by Iran"

Imagine that.

from what i've gathered here YOU are the one that needs Totalitarian regimes. ffs you are telling the godfather of the cellar to check himself? UG? FUCK THE HELL OFF AND DIE! yeah i said that! are you for real? do you not realize that because of "freedom of speech" that you are able to voice your opinion? and yes i realize the double standard in this post. far as i'm concerned.....never mind you wouldn't get it. or you would ACT like you didn't and argue. joke off and die dude.

Well I wonder how the hell this happened?!?!?!

Nuclear experts killed in Russia plane crash helped design Iran facility


http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...ility-1.369226

I need them?? When every post I've ever addressed the point in states that I do not need them?

Plthijinx, that is what a conservative does. Antitotalitarianism is what we think, and why we say the things we do.

That is the more intelligent road than the one you tell me you've taken -- and scream at me for not joining you on.

Being generally brighter than yourself, I can readily get any idea you care to express. The problem with the leftward folk is how bankrupt their ideas keep showing themselves to be. They thus retreat from the contest of ideas in shame and incapacity, even inanition.

Not me.

I'm not even dishonest enough to run by a double standard.

And the Left has confirmed this view unfailingly through the forty-seven years since -- forty-seven years which have seen the young grow up to abandon the Left. Hey, when you get it, you get it, whenever you do. What is right and accurately understood isn't going to change even with personal maturing, is it? One may have, in immaturity and inexperience, been misled about what things are right and what are wrong. But then comes the dawn, and the people which have struggled in darkness have seen a great light.

I'm the hero, the progressives the goats. And/or the sheeple. Fools, tools, and children. Faced with such, can one other than condescend? After all, thoughtcrime is not yet made illegal, so hanging and shooting are out.

An antitotalitarian view is one not to your taste, Bruce. You've been for years rather pathetically trying to give me grief for having one, in accordance with good, humane values which do not resonate with you.

Hero? :rotflol:

UG is the wind beneath my wings. ;)

Nice, nothing to worry about, just move along and don't break your neck while your head is in the sand.....

China and Iran plan oil barter

http://www.ft.com/intl/cms/s/0/2082e...#axzz1T4L1NkWh

Hanoi Cynthia.....

http://www.theblaze.com/stories/us-c...nst-terrorism/

What's the problem?

Iran blames Israel for killing nuke scientists

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7...125133,00.html

BREAKING

Iran 'Directed' Washington, D.C., Terror Plot

I hate to say it but we really need these people to be successful in carrying out one of their attacks, obviously the American Public thinks the 9/11 attacks were a one off....

And who would that benefit?

IMHO, The American Public. But hell, I thought they would have learned that after the last attack apparently not.

It makes me want to shrink further and further into a hole of self protection and tell everyone else to fuck off, you are on your own... my fear is I am not alone.

What are you talking about? What do you want to see from "the American Public" that you aren't seeing?

I want people to wake up and realize that the BS protests on Wall Street are meaningless compared to the larger issues of this country. They are a nice liberal touchy-feely distraction, but they do NOT address the larger issues.

When you have ass-holes like Mike Moore showing up and spouting off solidarity with the protestors, or some stupid ass rap star, all of whom make millions of dollars of the Capitalistic system that these idiots are protesting against it puts it all in perspective. Why are they not protesting in front of the Hollywood studios? Why are they not protesting in front of Huffington's house, or Al Gore's house? These mother fuckers all got rich off the same Capitalistic system these idiots are protesting against.

I will gather up some telling video of the solidarity of these fools and let you be the judge.....

They only protest against the "rich" they don't know or despise, not those that they admire....

Oh, I thought you had a point to make about terrorism.

I skimmed an interesting article the other day. It was basically saying that when we shifted our homeland security resources to preventing terrorism, we shifted them away from inspecting incoming cargo for pests, and in the last decade we have had a handful of pests that could cost a couple different agriculture industries hundreds of millions of dollars.

I skimmed another story that was making the point that drug violence from Mexico was a much bigger potential threat to the US than Muslim terrorists.

So I agree with your statement that the larger issues are being ignored. But it has nothing to do with the Wall Street protesters.

I guess my bottom line is that the whole Wall Street protesters have become a circus side show of the bigger issues of what ails us. And the deeper you look into the protest movement the more comical it becomes.

You seriously want Americans to die since a few Americans are not focusing on the issues YOU want them to focus on? No offense, but that's fucked up. Very fucked up.

Populations in general will never focus on the most important issues at hand for multiple reasons. One, there will always be disagreements about what the most important issues are. There are multiple issues that can legitimately argued to be the "most important" (income disparity is one of them BTW), but we will never know which one is really the "most important" without hindsight and ability to travel multiple parallel universes.

Two, people are emotional and biased creatures. Populations will always focus on issues that appeal to their biased nature instead of issues that will actually help them most. This is seen throughout history. It is not just Americans, but EVERYONE. Also, our emotions gives us a biased perspective of the world around us, making some issues, ones that appeal to us, seem more (or less) important than they really are by concentrating on certain factors which may or may not be what you think they are.

Remember, a lot of these OWSers are people that are jobless. The most pertinent and emotional issue to them right now is the economy and employment and they are using Wall Street as the lone scapegoat.


Also, a terrorist attack won't do shit to shift American's attention to "important" issues. All a terrorist attack will do is cause a panic and make us spend MORE money on precautions that will make us feel more safe, but actually not do much. Our government should have a better idea of how to protect our country and will do what is necessary whether it has public support or not.

Not what I said. Certainly not what I was trying to convey.

No need to "travel multiple parallel universes." The big problems are pretty obvious.

I guess if you want to get all esoteric about it.... is this psychology class? :p: {joking already!}

No doubt, but they have their weapon pointed in the wrong direction.


The point is that we have already lost sight of 9/11, since that was the last time we were actually unified about anything. It was a tongue-in-cheek comment, relax.

Ideally, I do seriously agree with you. But for unification to occur, something really bad usually has to happen. There is a reason we have an evolutionary response to unify in threatening situations and that unification isn't going to remain after the threat is gone though. I would prefer our country not be constantly threatened by some outside source and sacrifice the sense of unification.

I don't see terrorist threats as something that should unify the country anyways. I'm not downplaying the threat in general, I do realize the seriousness of it, but I see unification over a terrorist threat as something that can only backfire. Terrorist threats should be dealt with by CT measures, which seem to be Black Ops, drones (maybe), etc, not armies and definitely not by the general population. Once the general population and congress gets into it, CT seems to get much less effective.

Fuck unification, ideally. Monocultures are dangerously fragile. They're productive in direct proportion to their narrowness. They're susceptible to catastrophic failure from a single threat. They're rigid (How did that Maginot Line work out? Certainly a well defined unitary defense against an direct threat) You want unification of thought, of action? That's the Borg. Humans don't function well or long that way.

I pass.

Unification doesn't have to mean a single train of thought, but more just a strong sense of community.

The unity after 9/11 wasn't lost, it was squandered.

And here is where I think a lot of Americans are making a very bad assessment of the relative importance of things.

Assume the goal is to ensure the life, liberty and (opportunity to pursue) happiness of the US people.

Terrorists have killed ... ten thousand, in total, ever? How many have cigarettes killed? Car crashes?

Meanwhile, multinational corporations have effectively bought control of your government and are manipulating it for their own benefit. They send you to war, pillage your treasury. Your government now routinely spies on you and strip-searches you, and are taking more and more steps towards detention without trial, torture and killing.

I don't know about you guys, but I am FAR more scared of the trend toward corruption of the US government than I ever have been of any terrorist organisation.

Oh I actually came in to say, man, those Iranians are a bunch of dickheads. That is the sort of thing that happens when a group of religious fundamentalists get control of a government.

Our economic situation is a much greater threat to the life, liberty, and property of most Americans than terrorists in Yemen or nutters in tar baby of the day Uganda. Is Presidential power too heady for restraint? After a while it just seems hard to say no.

Well, it is, but understand that it is only about "the US people". The rest can fend for themselves.

Less than most all other countries. Ciggarette smoking has significantly been reduced in the US; Our car crash requirements are among the highest in the world. So yea, as long as we are free to manipulate statistics, we are doing quite well compared to other countries.

Democracy is a bitch.

Well, no, politicians did that. Not Corporations. I don't know where you got that idea, but our government made all that happen, not some mystery shadow corporation..

The God Damm Government is doing that for us.... not some mystery Corp....

Horse shit. I travel all the time. None of that has happened to me or anyone I know. You are focusing on 0.00001% of any person who travels.

I am much more fearful of a runaway government, unchecked and un-regulated.

Sir, corporations have long since taken more-or-less control of your government. They have nibbled your country out from under you while you (personally) were defending it from terrorists.

Funny how pretty much every thread about Libya, Iran, Iraq, etc ends up arguing US politics. It's a mostly American board here.

Strange how he never said that when wacko extremists - the worst type of conservative - were the government that was massacring American soldiers in Mission Accomplished for political aspirations. When wackos all but surrendered to the Taliban in Afghanistan. When wackos were kidnapping foreigners and justifying it using pretty expressions such as extraordinary rendition. When wackos were enriching the richest at the expense of all other Americans. When wackos refuse to prosecute Enron until all but embarrassed by the state of Oklahoma. When wackos refused to prosecute those who intentionally created a CA energy crisis. When wackos let First Energy operate a nuclear power plant with a potential Three Mile Island problem only because they ran a $400,000 Bush Cheney fund raiser. Same plant that was so mismanaged as to eat through its critically important containment dome. When wackos undermined what makes America great - science and research - by even destroying stem cell, quantum physics, space and advance energy research. Obama finally had to rescue the AMS experiment. And stop having White House lawyers rewriting science papers. These guys so hated American workers as to even stifle hybrid automobile products. Because profits are more important that things that once made America great.

Why did wackos destroy the US Space program by first not making any decisions, and then creating a disaster - Constellation, Orion, and Ares? Why did wackos attack so many space research projects? Why did wackos promote an obvious disaster only for political purposes - Man to Mars. And almost destroy the Hubble until a near revolt among the astronaut corp reversed that decision. Why did wackos says "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter". And therefore create today's economic calamity. Why did wackos all but protect bin Laden? All but protect Madoff. Why did wackos try to create a shooting war with China over a silly spy plane? Why did wackos do exactly what the Norwegian foreign minister predicted - destroy the Oslo Accords? Why did wackos make America's popularity throughout the world the lowest in post WWII history? Even turn a 90% popularity number in one of America's closest allies to less than 10% - and wackos said this was good.

Why does TheMercenary ignore all this to blame those who are not wacko extremists? Because Limbaugh et al tell him how to think. We have met the enemy and he is us. Forty years later, that same problem still exists. Those who most created all these problems are now blaming all others rather than look in a mirror.

Repeatedly ask TheMercenary to explain all these disasters. He will do everything to avoid your questions. So keep asking. Get him to admit to those mistakes. Or let him show all why most of America's problems are directly traceable to wackos who call everyone else a liberal.

Just because Beck, Hannity, et al are proven right by insulting all others does not mean TheMercenary is also right. Why do many disaster traceable to wacko extremists? Because "Reagan proved that deficits don't matter."

We must cut spending by $1 trillion because wackos lied about Mission Accomplished - which then cost $1 trillion. So everyone but wackos (who lied about Saddam's WMDs) created our budget problems. We who are not wacko extremists should feel so guilty.

What happened to the 85%?
wait whaaat?

Shall we start a pool on the date/time Israeli stealth's will leave a package on Iran's doorstep.

You Sir, have been warned. :eyebrow:

Voice of America
Nov 19, 2011
US to Slap Isolated Iran With New Sanctions

Woopdie dooo! Like anything has really changed. Turn the place into a parking lot. Some people cannot be negotiated with.

(yes, I realize its an immediate emotional reaction)

Yeah, careful UG. ;) If we pave the place, the more liberal minded die with the theocrats. I'd prefer we wait for the implosion of an untenable society.

lol

I usually go with 'not going to happen' since an Israeli attack on Iran has been predicted every 1 to 2 years since 2005, but the idea is becoming more and more mainstream (in discussion terms, not agreement terms). There was a recent boom in discussion of the probability and strategy behind an attack since the IAEA report came out.

If Israel does bomb Iran, I'm guessing it will be after US leaves Iraq since the Iraqis won't be able to detect Israeli planes illegally flying over their airspace (unless SA gives Israel permission).

Yes, I too am usually not paranoid/conspiratorial about such things.
But it was an article several days ago, similar to the one below,
that came to my mind when I read the "new sanctions" article.

I remember thinking, why are they making this (Israeli refusal)
public ... unless something is in the works ?
Now, announcement of the new sanctions... :3_eyes:

The Telegraph
Nov 19,2011
Israel refuses to tell US its Iran intentions

That's what I've been hearing as well. It is pretty clear that Obama is against a pre-emptive attack on Iran so if Israel wanted to go through with it, they would have to go alone. That is why they are forced to wait until after the US leaves Iraq if they can't go through SA.

The main reason why I believe Israel would not go through with an attack is that there is very little chance it will make their situation any better. But then again, I am feeling that Israel's pragmatism has been dwindling lately.

It seems as long as Iran can keep the talking (diplomacy) going,
there is not sufficient motivation to react to threats of more UN sanctions.
But when Israel starts scurrying about it does get their attention.

Reuters
By Parisa Hafezi
Tue Nov 22, 2011
Iran misjudged West's resolve in nuclear standoff

Why wait? Why should we not, say, help? Régime change can be successful... that's the lesson of the early twenty-first century.

What is it we can expect from the present Iranian government?
___ More of the same damn crap, plus undermining of democratic republics
___ Radical change and a Good Neighbor Policy

The problem with that thinking is that a counter attack by Iran would draw the US in by a MOU. Signed in 1968 and re-signed by Clinton and Netanyhau in 1998.

Maybe if Iran attacked Israel directly, which I doubt they would do. Their missile capability is extremely weak while Israel's (and the US's) is very strong. Iran would play to their strengths and use Hezbollah, Hamas, and other terrorist/insurgency cells if they decided to respond along with other non-direct methods. The US wouldn't be drawn in with an MOU if that happened.

Israel stirring up trouble? Maybe, maybe not. Turkey certainly is closer than Israel.....

http://www.haaretz.com/news/diplomac...-says-1.397862

Hmmm The first one I can buy was some sort of mistake or accident. Whatever.
But now another one?

A second Iranian nuclear facility has exploded,
as diplomatic tensions rise between the West and Tehran

link

Their subscription to Norton Anti-virus and Anti-spyware ran out.