Shhh. Merc. Stop that right now! You are not allowed to ask those types of questions. You know, the one that the Dems would be asking if GWB was still in the BigSeat. But the Savior is in town, and the first commandment is "Thou shalt not question your government."

Why can't people pay for their own cars, health plans, etc?

Spend, spend, spend... where does it end?

Schumer: $2 Billion More Not Enough For 'Clunkers'
New York Senator Wants $4 Billion For Wildly Popular Program, Says Senate Really Dropped The Ball Initially

http://wcbstv.com/national/cash.for....2.1109985.html

So you quote an mpg, but can't quote the car? Shame. 'Cause I'd love to buy a second-hand with that mpg, but can't fins a dealer who will go anywhere near that sort of figure.

Wait a fucking minute, I didn't quote mileage, I gave an example of why the program would be just as effective for used cars as for new cars if the object is to improve mileage.

You can't find cars with that mileage?
For 2009;
Accord 22-31
Cobalt 25-35
Malibu 22-33
Focus 24-35
Altima 23-32
Camry 21-31
Accent 27-33
to name just a sampling.

And the same cars for 2006;
Accord 23-31
Cobalt 22-31
Malibu 21-29
Focus 23-31
Altima 21-29
Camry 21-31
Accent 27-32
I don't see a lot of difference there.

Dealers down here are matching the Cash for Clunks programs with $4500. Ok so you take the sticker prices (Which is BS pricing to start with) and they drop the price $4500 and add another $4500 off of that, say on a brand new Ford Focus that is a good bit of change, most anyone should be able to get a loan on that. Well unless your credit is crap and you can't manage your money. Sounds like a pretty good deal.

City (MPG)24 (2009)
Hwy (MPG)33 (2009)
Hwy (MPG)35 (2009)

I got caught behind an older Chevy Suburban at the gas station yesterday. $93 fillup for one occupant. If people can afford that, they can easily buy their own new car with decent mileage. I can't get past the idea that Congress is pissing away our money on temporary stuff for selected individuals who will continue to make stupid decisions. This program is flat out stealing.

I doubt very much that they'll give you a $4500 dealer discount on a focus. very much.

maybe including rebates....they might have a $1000 mark up in a loaded focus.....no dealer will lose $3500 on a car if it's not being reimbursed by the manufacturer.

Especially in these deals, where they're not going to make anything on the trade in. Somehow the, "lose money on every sale, make it up on volume", doesn't work in the real world.

A lot of (most?) people don't realize the manufacturers have been steadily sliding down the percentage of MSRP that the dealer keeps, for a number of years.
Back in the Detroit hay days, the dealer could get 20%, (more on land yachts), but those days of double digit percentages are long gone.

OK, I'll give you the accent, thanks for the example. For the rest, though, especially the 2006, the lower end of their range is below the 24-26 MPG you suggested (and I misread 26-28, sorry), and given that a used car is an unknown, wouldn't you think such programs would assume the worst case scenario?

I don't disagree that it might have been a better program if it was also extended to used cars, I can just see some reasons why they might have been excluded. I'm also very leery of used cars and their claims to mpg.

The EPA numbers are estimated mileage for city and highway mileage. When I gave an example of trading, "a 1980 land-yacht getting 12/14 mpg" for "a 2 or 3 year old car that gets 24/26 mpg", it would have to be averages as the numbers are far to close together to be the city and highway numbers... except my Ford pickup that got 10mpg at 25mph empty and 10mpg at 60mph with a ton on. :rolleyes:

You know what my problem with this program is?
it royally fucks every college kid out there looking for a cheap car. Now the government is paying these dealers to destroy the cars I'M looking to buy!

Don't fret, there are many on the used lots already that were sold before this program came about. And if this program persuades more people to buy new, then the used car market will have more cars per buyer which might bring prices down ;)

It's heartbreaking to see this perfectly fine Volvo S80 destroyed in the name of... something. All that work and engineering simply being destroyed. Don't watch if you are a car fan, or have ANY better use of your time. Just watch the first 10 seconds to see what level of car is being destroyed here, not exactly a "clunker". It takes them a full 4 minutes to actually destroy the engine, running some sort of sand mixture instead of oil, what a testimony to Volvo...

It is not actually productive to an economy to simply *destroy* such things.

I wondered about this as well. A perfectly running 4 banger VW bug probably pollutes less than most cars on the road.

holy mother of fuck.

30 deals written on a monday. I was jammed from 10 am untill 12 am doing one after another.

Obama says he'll guarantee the program will cover all deals written thru midnight tuesday....... I'm afraid of tomorrow.

It's this insane activity.....managers paging for salesmen that are already all with people.....deals backing up in the rack....people waiting 3 hours to see me.....and then being all shitty and too impatient to listen to anything i have to say.....

i should call in sick.

Ok, has anyone actually gone on line and had to register and did you get this as a term of service agreement for your trade in? If so, WTF? I got this in an email and have not been able to confirm it yet. I would like to hear from any first hand buyers or someone in the know.

If true, that is a bit frightening for the average Joe who never reads the fine print when cash is involved.

Anyone?

http://www.examiner.com/x-10974-Kans...d-and-the-ugly

The Top Ten Cash for Clunkers Trade-Ins:
1. 1998 Ford Explorer



2. 1997 Ford Explorer



3. 1996 Ford Explorer



4. 1999 Ford Explorer



5. Jeep Grand Cherokee



6. Jeep Cherokee



7. 1995 Ford Explorer



8. 1994 Ford Explorer



9. 1997 Ford Windstar



10. 1999 Dodge Caravan



The Top Ten Cash for Clunkers New Cars:
1. Ford Focus



2. Honda Civic



3. Toyota Corolla



4. Toyota Prius



5. Ford Escape



6. Toyota Camry



7. Dodge Caliber



8. Hyundai Elantra



9. Honda Fit



10. Chevy Cobalt

http://autos.yahoo.com/articles/auto...-and-new-cars/

Can anyone think of a reason they will not release the data so Congress can see whether or not it is really worth the expense BEFORE the vote for more money? Can anyone defend that?

August 06, 2009
Obama administration withholds data on clunkers

http://www.realclearpolitics.com/new..._clunkers.html

Toyoda*-san say "Domo arigato gozaimasu**, Amerika-san!!"



* head of Toyota Motor Corp
** thank you very much

Do itashimashite, Toyoda-san.

as far as the concept of a 'stimulus' package goes....

i can say this:

I was at work until 2:20 am on thursday night. I did 15 deliveries. only 4 of them were cash for clunker deals. clearly.....business breeds business. We have done 52 cash for clunker deals since july 24th. it's the 7th, and we've sold 80+ cars. at this pace....we'll sell 450 cars this month. our record is 307.

my boss offered me $750 to come in on Sunday to bill deals and file clunker claims.

consider me stimulated.

And when the thing is over, your boss will pay you to stay home, because all the people who wanted cars will have gotten them and the resulting lull in September will be record-breaking too.

Or like most programs being inacted under the stimulus bill, when the money is gone so will too be the "stimulus" and resultant "millions of jobs created".

That is amazing. I've found that the few Astras that were left have been snatched up as of late, as I wait for my settlement and consider what I'm going to get: I may not be able to find the same car. And I reallllllly liked that car.

Thanks for the information showing success in the program. UT, I think there might be a lull, but hopefully the business will then be in a position to ride out that lull...and as the economy slowly recovers it will be back to business as usual. Eventually.

The idea, of course, is that after the car-buying rush eases off, LJ will have a huge bucket of money from all that overtime, and he can go and spend that on beer and pizza, thus stimulating the beer and pizza sectors. Then the newly rich pizza boy can buy a new car from LJ and keep it all going.

Well, that's the idea. The fact that so many of those new cars are Japanese casts a few doubts on it all. Maybe Mr Takagawa will take a holiday in Hawaii or something.

Many Hondas are made right here in Ohio.

eta: The Honda plants, not far from me, did cut back...their cutbacks involved no lay-offs. Everyone still worked (and they make a nice wage) but at a few lesser hours. These people work hard. I hope it stimulates their economy as well: all that money will go back into the economy as their buying power goes back to what they were used to.

I like the trend here as they may actually be getting some real crap off the roads. I still wonder if they are creating a hurdle for people who are driving super crap cars by crushing vehicles somewhat better than they're driving and pushing up prices in the used car market. It is too bad GM doesn't have anything beyond Cobalt, but Ford seems well positioned.

This is slightly outdated, but still relavent I'm sure:

http://www.star-telegram.com/busines...y/1522921.html

Thats not the only article that reports those, or similar figures either.

I wish they had the program when we bought 3 new cars between Dec 08 and Jan 09. I would have been happy to get in on this governemnt hand out.

So GM must be moving a spread of nominally better cars that just qualify?

Fuel economy: Purchased vehicles average 25.3 miles per gallon, a 60 percent improvement over the 15.8 mpg average of trade-ins.
If true this would be nice.

I bet you got decent deals on those... I guess you made the last market driven decision in the PDR of America.

We got some pretty good deals, '07 Honda, '08 Toyota, '09 Mini.

Ha ha! Maybe they'll get a nice Lamar Alexander.

why ya gotta be like that?

Trying to set your expectations... happiness is low expectations

try to set *THESE*

Haggis! I love the look on the elephant's face.

I both love and hate political cartoons; they say so much, so powerfully, in such a short time, they communicate so effectively; but because they don't give a reasoned argument, they are almost invulnerable to counter-argument, and because they're funny (well the good ones are) anyone who does nit-pick just looks like a killjoy.

Anyone see this as a way to give the big 3 more money without calling it a bailout? just sayin...

Correct me if I'm wrong but the program is open to all manufacturers, so it would not make US manufacturers any more desirable than they have been. So considering how US manufacturers have begged/lobbied/bribed Congress in the past not to raise CAFE fuel standards, on average the most fuel efficient cars are not from the big 3.

so....the claim process can suck it.

it took me 5 hours to enter 12 claims today. completely mind numbing.

We've done 65 Clunker deals to date, I still have 12 to enter.....and I'm solo all week because my shitbag partner is on vacation. prick.

gonna be a loooooong week.

Yea, but you get the commission and he doesn't, right?

no...we get paid the same on all of the deals each month.

It's a sonofabitch when one guy goes on vacation. this is just really bad timing. My only hope is that there is a little bit of a mid month lull. Now that there is a fresh 2B in the coffers, I''m hoping the frenzied atmosphere will relent a bit.

jim, I have a question:

I was thinking maybe I could get in on this once I get my settlement and purchase a new vehicle, well it's worth a shot anyway.

The MPG ratings for my piece o' crap car is higher than 18 when you figure the EPA city/highway average. I find this crazy. How are people turning in WAY better cars than my POC and getting the deal? Am I missing something?

What boggles my mind about this "Cash for Clunkers" thing is the debt people are going in. Sure, get a non-gas guzzler. That's always a good idea. But the debt? Isn't that part of the original problem from the beginning? Debt. Now the gummint is telling people to get into more debt? Just doesn't click in my feeble old mind.

I have two vehicles, a 98 Crown Vic and a 99 Dakota. Both just over 100k in miles but both run super. Main thing - they have been free and clear for years. Granted, this "program" isn't for everyone but, who would want to trade in a car that's paid for for one they're going to be paying for over the next 4, 5 or 6 years.

Interesting note about this special. I couldn't help but to notice in the paper a couple of weeks ago. Our local Kia dealership was advertising this "Cash for Clunkers" thing and featured the list price for a Kia Rio at $21k :eek: Then with the federal rebate and their rebates it would knock the price down to $12k for a new Kia Rio.

Personally, I think this entire stimulus thing has been a pile of crap from the beginning. Never, ever should a single dime ever have been given out. Capitalism should have just taken its course (if a business fails, then it fails).

The problem, Madman, is that when those businesses fail... lots of real, actual people lose out with it. Not just the execs - they've got plenty to fall back on - but all the workers all the way down the line who are suddenly out of a job, losing their home, out on the street, in dire need of our help as moral people, not to mention a social and fiscal drain on society. If we can solve the problem of absurd executive compensation, the ideal solution within our current system is to help the businesses survive. Society stays productive, people stay working and earning money, and the teetering balancing act that is the capitalist economy stays upright a little longer.
Krugman makes a good if inelegant point in today's NYT:

Unfortunately you're right. It's the "little guy" that ultimately loses out. The heavily paid execs can generally maintain the lifestyle they already have.

No one is really concerned when small business fails. They're not missed much. But, when the mega-corp's crash and burn, everyone knows about it.

I can't help but to thing when Carter bailed out Chrysler with a $1 billion bailout package just before the end of his term. Then when Reagan became President some airline was going belly up. Reagan's response: "The U.S. Government is not in the business of bailing out failed businesses." As a result, that airline was bought out by another company and it survived.

Well, if this "Cash for Clunker" thing works... great! I'm keeping my clunkers.

While I don't disagree with you on this, I would think that if that's truly what it was (a schemed bail out) then the financial reward would be limited to only those folks who bought a car from one of the 'big three'. (More money for domestics, lesser reward for imports).

yeh - I know Dag. I was, like I said, just sayin.

Well, it's weird - when we were home this weekend watching TV, the only commercials we saw that were even mentioning the Cash for Clunkers program was Toyota - none of the domestics were even mentioning it.

Considering they NEED the money - I'm surprised by that!

it's al about the mpgees. i did 5 more clunkers today, bringing the total to 69. along with 8 other deals.

jesus. i was there from 6 am till midnight and fucking busy the whole time.

I'm seeing lots of Explorers, Grand Cherokees, Durangos, Windstars, and Grand Voyager/Caravan/T&C s. I would have expected more F150s.

That quote only applies to DEALERS using the DEALER version of the website, making them de facto government contractors using government websites for government money.

On any State Department computer, using the State Department WebPASS program for inter-office procurement or motor pool requests, you get this text:

Its no big deal. Big Brother is not using car sales to spy on you. They ARE using car dealers who are working with the government to sell you cars and stimulate the economy, and AS PER REGULATIONS, do have the ability (not necessarily the wish) to check their computers that are accessing the DoT servers. It's a security thing.

That's exactly what they want you to think. :tinfoil:

That is why I asked Jim, because he is on the inside. I want to hear it from a credible source.

First time I've heard a car dealer referred to as a credible source... :right:


J/k Jim, *most* of you guys are pretty straight. I've just had bad experiences while trawling through the bottom end of the market.

Some salesmen are scumbags, but LJ is a finance manager and they're above all that. They get an once of your flesh, without resorting to nasty stuff. :haha:

btw, heres a reminder from the Feds.

funny you should say that. Oft times, in order to break the ice...ease the tension....etc, I say, 'OK, Folks.....this is where we take the Pint of Blood!' it always gets a laugh....and people recognize that I know they are feeling nervous..... I have a couple other things I say to people to shake them out of their shock/whatever. when I put the Power of Attorney in front of them, I say...." this is a Power of Attorney. It makes our Attorney more Powerful." If they laugh, I know they are smart enough to understand the words coming out of my mouth. If they just sign it with that stupid look on their face, I know they are in shock over having just bought a car. If they stop and look up at me with a shitty look on their face, I know the won't be buying a goddamned thing, and that they wet the bed into their teens.

we sold 35 cars on saturday.