[OnyxCougar]

Originally Posted by BigV

OC, I said that for a couple of reasons. I'm not going to bother formatting this reply with your "quotes". You're free to correct my memory. Not in any particular order...

1 -- Let's say the little girl does have special needs. That's no excuse for denying her special attention. Ausberger's or whatever doesn't like touching? Ok, not an expert in that area but that means there's some other way of rendering the help she needed. I said APPROPRIATE restraint. Ok, whatever's appropriate for her. I contend that handcuffs were not appropriate. Adequate? Yes, more than adequate, way more.

By the way, I use quotes because I post most often from work and it helps me focus when I'm in and out of window so often.

At no time was the teacher or VP denying her special attention. She was getting all the attention she could hope for, and it turns out, more than anyone bargained for.

Appropriate restraint for a child that is kicking and hitting is not close physical contact. In fact, in the CNN broadcast last night, the lawyer for the parents stated that it's the police he's most upset with, and he feels the teachers were "shadowing and hovering" around her in a way that was "not conducive to calm"ing the child down. (Those are direct quotations.)

So here, you're screaming for physical restraint on the part of the teacher, but the lawyer is saying he's thinking of pressing charges because they were too close to her!! Obviously the lawyer thinks she should have been left in an empty room to destroy it. *shrug* Bottom line is, the LAWYER didn't want them to touch her, and that's exactly the point I was trying to make.

I want to also say that I am 100% for the use of hug as a method of restraint, but again, for the millionth time, legal bullshit prevents me (and anyone else) from doing so. Your school's policy is different than Jaieesha's school, and it's different from mine here in Podunk, NC. It's also different in my kids schools in every school they've been to, since 1996, in Las Vegas. No touching is hardly an isolated policy.

2 -- I've already addressed the fiction of not being allowed to touch a child. My disagreement with you is the deeper issue of hiding behind the rules as an excuse for not doing what needed to be done. Speaking for the teacher, you defended her actions by saying "THE RULES SAID" she couldn't touch the child. I am upset that the respect for the rules exceeded the compassion for the child.

The child was not in physical danger, until she jumped up on the table, when the VP physically removed her from the table. Then she wasn't in danger then. This school has a no-touching policy, and the VP followed policy. As a teacher, the child's shit fit (not physical danger, but shit fit) does not, and will never, trump my source of income for my family. In other words, I will not get fired over restraining this little brat. School policy is not to touch, she's not in physical danger. Done deal.

3 -- I asked about personal responsibility. You indicated that the dominant forces happen from birth to 5 years old. Do you mean that by 5 years old that personal responsibility should be dominant?

No, that's not what I mean. Dominant forces in a childs life are birth to 5. Meaning, if you haven't put the correct foundation in, it's MUCH harder to add it later. If by 5 you haven't shown by example, taught with love and discipline, the basics of personal responsiblity and respectable behavior, chances are, they're not going to get it without a serious learning experience. That is not to say that all 5 year olds take personal responsiblity, but it IS to say that the seeds have to be planted BY age 5 and then nurtured and grown into adolescence and young adult hood.

You were singing a different tune when the discussion was regarding your own child. You spoke at length about the responsibility resting on the shoulders of the adult when push came to shove. And yet you seem to give the adult in this case a pass because the little kid should have more personal responsibility, has issues, is having an epic tantrum, etc.

No, I wasn't singing any other tune. I agree that the adults in the situation were ultimately responsible for what happened, and that starts with Jaieesha's parents, NUMBER 1. Jaieesha KNEW that she was wrong. She KNEW she was pissing the VP off, and she was flat out playing games with the VP. Willfully. This behavior is not ALL Jaieesha's fault, by ANY means, mostly I blame her parents. But there *IS* a measure of personal responsibility that she needs to take. Let's use your 5 year old as an example.

LittleV is having a *really* bad day. He manages to clear out the classroom, and then gets sent to the principles office. At this point, LittleV *knows* beyond a shadow of a doubt he's in deep shit. He knows that when you are called, his ass in the ringer for sure. At this point, if at no other, he should take personal responsibility and calm down, and that's it. It's over. You come, pick him up, do whatever you do, and it doesn't happen again.

Jaisheesa isn't like LittleV. Jaieesha got the the VP's office, and at that point (and any normal child's point) INSTEAD OF TAKING PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY or, instead of being afraid of punishment, or whatever, she continued, because she KNEW she was wrong and didn't care.

That's the difference, Big.

That kind of double standard chaps my ass.

It's not a double standard, so there's some vaseline.

4 -- This video and this story struck a very different chord in you than it did in me. I was aghast at the image of the little girl being handcuffed by police. Your reaction was "Bravo to the teacher for courage in the line of fire. Give her a raise."

I don't see the big nasty police throwing her down on the floor, putting their knees in her back, and manhandling her. I see them restraining an out of control little girl, so she can be safely transported to CPS or wherever, since her parents haven't come to retrieve her in over 45 minutes.

Hey, it's a free country. You can think and say what you want. Maybe "wrong" is not exactly the right word here....But I struggle to find a better word, and I can find none. It is wrong to see this video and fail to be scandalized by the image of cops handcuffing a little girl.

I AM scandalized. I'm scandalized that our country has come to the point that schools HAVE to have this policy or something like it to keep from being sued. I'm scandalized that parents don't give a shit about their kids that they don't give them the loving care and discipline (also called loving limits) that they need.

I'm scandalized that instead of the PARENTS being handcuffed for not doing THEIR job, (1) teaching Jaieesha proper behavior and (2) coming to pick her up when she's out of control, the FUCKED UP PARENTS are suing the cops for restraining their child, because the school can't, because of policies put in place because of parents like them!!!

Why aren't you pissed about that?????

Why aren't you pissed at the parents, Big???? They are the ROOT CAUSE of this whole situation. The PARENTS failed at not just one juncture, but TWO. And you're pissed at the teacher?????

Fuck THAT.