[BigV]

Originally Posted by warch

Unless you are a murderous Islamofacist extreemist blindly convinced of your own revelation and the subhuman nature of your victims. I do not believe there is any rehabilitation possibility there. Recruiting and indoctrination, if we can find a way to break that powerful weapon....

Originally Posted by somebody NOT warch

Unless you are a murderous Christofacist extreemist blindly convinced of your own revelation and the subhuman nature of your victims. I do not believe there is any rehabilitation possibility there. Recruiting and indoctrination, if we can find a way to break that powerful weapon....

Bonus points if you can find the functional difference in these two quotes. How is it that an "Islamic" whacko is irredeemable? It is the "islam" or is it the "whacko" that makes it so? I thought we established some time ago that this is not repeat not a religious issue, irrespective of the language used to camoflage it. There are often levers pulled and buttons pushed on all sides that are connected to the faith of one side or another. But any serious study of any of the faith traditions involved in any of these conflagrations any you'll find that the moderate position in all of them hold that bombing the unbelievers is a no-no.

Regarding recruiting and indoctrination...indoctrination is the exact opposite of understanding. THAT'S why it works as a recruiting tool, because it is indoctrination. "Do not think, do not question, obey. Act on orders. Do as you're told." You're right to point out that this is an important aspect of the problem, one that is critical to solving this problem.

Let me ask you, when those that are already indoctrinated, those that are indoctrinating the new recruits, what are these guys saying to the recruits? "America is bad, so bad you must be willing to die to help turn our situation around", or words to that effect. Now think, on someone not yet indoctrinated, someone who's avenues of critical thinking remain open, what would be a natural response to this dramatic statement. I mean, I would need some pretty good evidence to back up the claim that I have to be willing to die (something I don't want to do, something no one wants to do). Evidence, support, reasons. What might these trainers point to for support. What would convince a young man (or woman) to do this?

In my world, when I mess up once, I have to do, like, twenty good things before the memory of my goof-up fades. That ratio is flexible, if it's a bad boo-boo, then I might have to do many more postive things to balance out the perception of my net goodness. I believe this applies it your recruitment question as well.

Unfortunately, there are many many many things that are negative, some true, some not, some in between (spun), that we, America / the West / etc, that we're tarred with. The prospect of outweighing that mountain of negativity with twenty or a thousand or a zillion mountains of good is daunting. But doable. And it only happens one act at a time. I am trying to do my share. Jag put it well in this exchange:

Originally Posted by mrnoodle

--snip--You can't change minds until you've made your own people safe from the bombs.

Wrong.

Originally Posted by jaguar

You can't make people safe from the bombs until you change minds.

What stopped the last group to terrorise london, the IRA? Certainly wasn't the security forces.

Originally Posted by warch

The moderate muslims need more than to just get to know us, they need to get to know and value a new view of themselves.

Huh? The moderate muslims need what? If anything, the moderate muslims need to get to know their own community better and apply their own standards more consistently.

So let's recap. Whackos==bad, they bomb people and are impossible to rehabilitate.

Killing unbelievers is anathema in all mainstream religions, and the large majority of moderate believers agree.

A laser sharp focus on the religious aspect of this issue misses the point and wastes energy better spent on the real issue of entrenched, bone deep disillusionment and a sense of helplessness and victimhood on the part of the perpertrators.

I am not an apologist for these terrorists or their actions. I want it to stop. I believe the best way to reach that goal is through a greater understanding of each other. Don't you get it? You reap what you sow. I'm trying to sow peace here. I am sowing understanding. listening, compassion, brotherhood, in the hope that I will listened by my brothers. I hope that listening leads to understanding and compassion. I hope that leads to peace.