[tw]

Originally Posted by bluesdave

tw, as usual you are fixated on one subject (and I *do not* mean this is a nasty way). What difference do numbers in opinion polls really make? For a start, opinion polls, wherever they are conducted, are unreliable. People will answer one way on a given day, and the reverse on another. Do you really think that Giuliani really has a chance of being the Republican candidate in 2008? He is topping the polls at the moment, but who thinks he will actually get up, let alone win the Presidency?
...
As I mentioned earlier, over 700,000 Iranians died in the US supported Iraq/Iran war. The Iranian people have long memories.

Yes, the average Pakistani "on the street" is going to say he/she hates America, but they have been brainwashed.

If the average Pakistani is brainwashed, then he is brainwashed with diatribes from his dictatorship government. Why then is Pakistani opinion contrary to what his government says?

Brainwashed or not is completely irrelevant. Relevant: that is their opinion. An opinion repeatedly demonstrated in poll after poll from many sources. An attitude so massively unfavorable of America that approval numbers repeated are in an extremely one-sided 25% region. A massive unfavorable rating common to nations that are not secular.

How can one declare so many polls from so many different sources as all wrong? The trend is obvious. Contrary to what their government says, secular nations tend to have more favorable American numbers; fundamental religious extremists tend to be unfavorable.

Same applies to poll numbers from Iranians and interviews by international reporters. Iranians are a more secular people. Polls put Iranians with numbers equal to or more favorable than so many American ally nations. As Jay notes:

Of course Iran hates America..... and so do the majority of Middle east states

Do Iranians hate Americans because of Saddam's attack on Iran? Of course not. They most certainly remember how America supported the hated Shah again and again. The Shah even did torture. But trivial support given to Saddam and Iraq does not inspire hate of America. America's support of the hated Shah is something that America should apologize for - part of the process of political exchanges that would restore Iranian-American relationships.

Of so many reasons why Pakistan is such a threat - Pakistanis (unlike Iranians) are fundamentalist religious. Even during America's justified attack on Afghanistan or during "Mission Accomplished", Iran was so cooperative with Americans. Pakistan had to be dragged into cooperation. Pakistani military is even suspected of spying for bin Laden. Why then does Iran nearly 100% hate Americans? Hate is only found in George Jr / Rush Limbaugh / neo-con and wacko extremist propaganda. Facts and supporting numbers just don't support your contention that Iranians so hate Americans. Did Iranians provide the Taliban with intelligence? Absolutely not.

Have I digressed about 'fancy trim work'? No. I go right for at structure - fundamental and underlying facts. To understand why Americans see Iranian threats where none exist, well, in your own example, America made enemies of a closest American friend - Vietnam - for exact same reasons. Why do I concentrate on this 'so essential' point? Learn the lessons of history or be condemned to repeat the deaths of millions. Same 'girders' explain why America wasted so many in Vietnam AND why same could happen in Iran. Essential to avoiding war is to defang wacko extremists who want to fix the world by "Pearl Harboring" Iran. They are the source of Iranian hate.

Why is Iran - that was working towards improved relations with America despite opposition from fundamentalist clerics - why is Iran suddenly so much an enemy? Not because of Iranian hatred. Nothing was as destructive as when George Jr announced his intent to "Pearl Harbor" Iran in Jan 2002. Even moderate Khatami whose supporter were women and young Iranians and his predecessor Rafsanjani who had been working for better US relations - both had to concede to the clerics due to George Jr. If George Jr had not made his 'all but declaration of war' speech, Iranian relations could have improved as the majority of Iranians once wanted. Even Rafsanjani had to backtrack; join clerics in anti-American rhetoric.

Anyone who views Iran as monolithic could never appreciate a power struggle between Iranian presidents (who so wanted to improve their American relations) and clerics (who like so many Pakistanis, instead, distrust Americans). That is what George Jr and Rush Limbaugh thrive on - public naivety. Iran could have been somewhere behind Libya in restoration of American relations. They could even forgive Americans for imposing the Shah on them. Iranians are not a country of religious extremists like Pakistan. Iran is a secular nation that has often made gestures to improve their American relationships only to be rebuffed by our wacko extremist government.

Why do I not let this go? Because neo-con myth purveyors could create war on another potential friend. This myth that Iranians are a nation of maybe 40 million suicide bombers is absolute nonsense. To not see through those neo-co myths would be deja vue Vietnam - and millions more dead. Do we instead relive lesson of history?

Fundamental to avoiding such conflicts is to ignore 'fancy trim work'; instead go after fundamental facts ruthlessly and incessently. Iranian attitude is essential - the 'girders' - to understanding that region. To not do so - to not see why 'Iranian hate' myths are promoted - is why wars are created. Had America been intelligent and not declared a "Pearl Harbor" intent for wacko neo-con political reasons, then Iran would not be this threat that some 'feel'. Deja vue Vietnam when McCarthyism did then what 'Project for a New American Century' does today.