[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Urbane Guerrilla

Seems you have a little problem here with doing right by the Jews, as the great bulk of your solutions to the problem will shortchange them. You do comprehend, do you not, just why doing right by the Jew is something we want to do? You do comprehend, do you not, just how offended decent Christians were at the excesses European antisemitism had created? The death camps, the ovens? After the death camps' proof that inhuman savagery is the lot they could expect for being stateless outsiders in Europe, just what do you think they ought to have done?? If it were up to me, I'd find a permanent, yes a final, solution! And how should I behave if I find someone determined beyond life itself to impede it, do you think?

What a pathetic argument. Yes, what happened to the Jews in the holocaust was beyond horrible but it doesn't give them any excuse to do the same thing to the Arab people. Choosing them over Arabs is racist (or the equivalent term for discrimination by religion), which is borderline doing what Hitler did. We need to learn from our mistakes and not pick a certain race or religion over another. That is racism or whatever the fuck discrimination of religion is called and it should never be tolerated.

And how about doing right by a democracy, eh? Have you a mustard seed's faith in democracy? Most of the people who bitterly dispute with me on this point have no faith in democracy as a social order at all -- their posts evidence this.

How does a faith or lack of faith in democracy have anything to do with this? I am calling for equal treatment of both Jews and Arabs, nothing more nothing less.

That manifests a want of thought, a want of morals, a want of human decency, and with it, a surplus of fascist sympathies. I have no fascist sympathies whatsoever -- none, that is, beyond such sympathy as is needed to choose for them and their lackeys a swift death over a slow one. Look, sometime, into the fascist roots of the Ba'athist Party -- these guys modeled their ideology on the examples of Mussolini's Italy and Hitler's Germany, and that was how they invented their party. Such things offend my libertarian sensibilities.

I can't tell but if you are calling me a fascist, you might as well hang it up right now because you are losing it. What the Zionists are doing right now is one of the closest things to fascism we have now and you are sympathizing with them making you a hypocrite.

In Europe, statelessness is, long-term, dangerous. Were not the Jews harried from pillar to post by varying levels of prejudice among Europe's rulers? And were they not being punished for -- well what? -- being Jewish? Sheeyit.

I am just as against prejudice against Jews as I am prejudice against Palestinian Arabs. Putting all the Zionists in one place will only cause, and it already happened, one thing, racism and a feeling of supremacy. By having a one-state solution we get rid of that racism. I don't think any religion should have its country but a country should be for the people that have lived there. We can not force all the Jews out of Israel just as we can not force all the Europeans and Mexicans out of the United States so we will have to learn to deal with the problem with integration of the two different cultures.

Back in the nineteen-teens, British Prime Minister Balfour offered Europe's Jews a choice for land in which to reestablish a state: the Holy Land or a swatch of Uganda. The Jewish representatives discussing the matter with him -- this had to do with getting Europe's Jews generally allied with England in WW1 -- said thanks but no thanks to Uganda: in effect, promise them the Holy Land or promise them nothing. I think the desires of the Jews for a homeland, a state, do rather come into this for consideration.

Do you see a pattern in history? Which modern political figure used "you are with us or against us" and "my way or the highway" and what did that get him? That way of thinking can only cause problems and it is clearly evident now.

The one-state solution, a reversion to the borders of the British Mandate, would perhaps be a stable one -- if anyone on either side actually wanted it.

I'm sure a lot of people on both sides want it but we just don't hear from them. The one-state solution is the only one that doesn't promote racism, controversial borders, and everything that comes with that.

I keep in mind that politics is the art of the possible, not the Graustarkian: I say it's bootless to even say that they should, when absolutely no such thing will happen unless they want it, and there isn't enough motivation for those there on the ground to even start wanting it.

Yes there is. The Palestinians are living in extreme poverty and no way to get out because all their resources are taken from them by the Israelites.

For differing reasons, neither side does, and no visible bloc in either Israel or Jordan wants such a union. The situation is this: the Israelis do not want to be put in a minority, and the Jordanians and other Arabs prefer being aggrieved to sharing in the wealth that could make the entire Eastern Mediterranean bloom. Culturewide, the Arabs underperform at generating wealth, and equally culturewide, the Israelis overperform. Guess which side I think is likely to be the better.

You are getting borderline racism here and you know just as well as I do that race has nothing to do with the economic boom but outside resources. America and the west have never helped an Arab nation like we have Israel, don't even go there.

The one Arab response to the return of the Jews to their ancient home has been murder, and only murder. Mass murder. This was going on long before 1948. The Arabs cannot cry to me that they are the victims when their invariable behavior is that of the perps! They have utterly deceived you, Pierce, and you've been made a fool of. Never, never come down on the side of the perps, unless your life's goal is solely to be a perp. I, for one, cultivate better ambitions, uncontaminated by such nastiness.

Maybe you should look at yourself the same way with the Israelites. Both sides have committed genocide on each other and now it is time to stop.

I see the evils of Israel's opponents just a little too clearly to be fooled. The Jews are NOT the ones feuding with the Arabs: it's all one way.

What the fuck are you talking about?!?!?! Israel has been expanding its border and occupying its surrounding countries, kicking the local Palestinians out of their homes forcing them into poverty. Yes, Israel did get attacked first but that is because the western nations illegally put a nation in their neighbors land kicking out the neighbor population. It is both ways and you are either in denial or too stupid to realize that.

If you're going to blame the Zionists -- and that's too close to antisemitism to be palatable,

No, I don't hate the Jews or most forms of Zionism (even though I disagree with it), just the extreme form we have now. The Zionists in control are racist and are killing the Palestinians just as Hitler did to them. I can say I hate Hitler and the Nazi regime without saying I hate Germans. Stop using that pathetic argument.

and Jewish antizionists strike me as a lot of culturally suicidal misplacers of priorities -- I should hope you'd lay equal opprobrium on the Huns for pushing the Lombards and Vandals west and south, pushing the Visigoths into Iberia, et cetera, in the fourth and fifth centuries, and the Celts going west beginning about in the fifth century BC, absorbing or displacing previous occupants, until eventually they set up shop in the British Isles -- which weren't empty then either. And while you're at it, want to reprehend the Cro-Magnon replacing the Neanderthal population?

Haha, you are putting words in my mouth now, another one of your pathetic argument styles. I do not want to displace the Israelites but just let Israel-Palestine to become one state. If I lived back then I would want the two societies to live together peacefully just like I want both Israel and Palestine to do now.

Nah, to me that line of thought is all hooey. Remember that some ideas are so bad that only left-wing intellectuals can hold them.

I can just say the same thing about right-winged neocons.