[Urbane Guerrilla]

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

What a pathetic argument. Yes, what happened to the Jews in the holocaust was beyond horrible but it doesn't give them any excuse to do the same thing to the Arab people.

They aren't, though the Arabs will incessantly tell you they are -- but again, you can't convincingly claim you're the victim when you're so busy killing Jews in bunches. Arab propaganda sways you, but not me. I'll say this just once: the Arabs are the ones indulging in genocidal ideas for Israel; the Israelis are not indulging in genocidal ideas towards any Arabs. Understandably.

Choosing them over Arabs is racist (or the equivalent term for discrimination by religion), which is borderline doing what Hitler did.

Oh really. For your information, Israel is a democracy, and there is not a single democracy among Israel's foes. I choose to support a democracy, and the undemocracies can all go hang, for all of me. Neither race nor religion enters into this. You're attempting to find fairness in neutrality, but between these two ways, I'll pick the better one -- according to my experience of which way is the better. Remember that I've had both. Too, if you're unable to make a value judgement, you're largely unable to really live -- because you don't count for anything. I should think not counting for anything would at least offend your ego.

How does a faith or lack of faith in democracy have anything to do with this? I am calling for equal treatment of both Jews and Arabs, nothing more nothing less.

I think it has everything to do with it; see the remark on value judgements above. I am calling for choosing the best, and nondemocracy isn't it. The neocons you rave against (ever so ignorantly, I think) have one idea that is so right, so magnificent, so transcendental, that nothing can stand against it morally: democratic republics prosper best in a world full of other democratic republics. (Was it not PNAC that gave this idea expression?) When these republics prosper, the peoples prosper. You prosper. I prosper. Who would speak against prosperity?

I can't tell but if you are calling me a fascist, you might as well hang it up right now because you are losing it.

Then I'll be blunt: you're a fascist sympathizer, and I'm not. Your own words condemn you, and they hang you up, all right -- nailed to the cross.

What the Zionists are doing right now is one of the closest things to fascism we have now and you are sympathizing with them making you a hypocrite.

Let's see if I have this straight: the Arabs have been screaming genocide and reading Protocols of the Learned Elders of Zion, in translation, under the impression it's nonfiction. They've launched war after war after war, and lost every one of them, without paying very much of a penalty in territory or anything else that can't be rebuilt or replaced. I see in this that the weed of bigotry is bearing toxic fruit, and it's keeping the failing states of Araby in a condition of social wreckage.

And you call Israel's defensive efforts to deal with this menace one of the closest things to fascism we have now? Boy -- you're less than half my age and of far less experience of this world -- are you quite certain you know anything at all of fascism?

I am just as against prejudice against Jews as I am prejudice against Palestinian Arabs.

This would be defensible were all else being equal. Unfortunately for this we have one side full of enthusiasts for genocide, and another side that suffered genocide and is quite allergic to it. Which side is then on the higher moral plane? And if they're on the higher moral plane, wouldn't I like them better? You see, I make value judgements confidently: eschew moral relativism; it's popular with the young (and the careless) but it's a snare and a delusion.

Putting all the Zionists in one place will only cause, and it already happened, one thing, racism and a feeling of supremacy.

The supremacy is more than a feeling: it's engendered by winning all the wars, not by assembling the Zionists. They've done that both without and with our aid, remember. We're a mighty ally and nice to have, but Israel doesn't necessarily need us to keep itself propped up: the Jews have turned tough and they've turned heroic. In the face of their enemies who know no restraint, the Jews keep such restraint as they can. When the Arabs cease their genocidal madnesses, the Jews will take no revenge upon them. Such is their character, and you are most reluctant to admit it. Now picture yourself surrounded by chronically murderous foes. Are you going to like these peoples? Let's just understand that any attitude the Israelis cop is pretty understandable.

By having a one-state solution we get rid of that racism. I don't think any religion should have its country but a country should be for the people that have lived there. We can not force all the Jews out of Israel just as we can not force all the Europeans and Mexicans out of the United States so we will have to learn to deal with the problem with integration of the two different cultures.

In this case, it is not we who must learn to deal, but they. The Israelis were always willing to deal. The Arabs: conspicuously not. Read Israel's history, particularly in its early days.

Who could be sympathetic to the unwilling ones? I sure can't.

I'm sure a lot of people on both sides want it but we just don't hear from them. The one-state solution is the only one that doesn't promote racism, controversial borders, and everything that comes with that.

I can't be anywhere near so sure until I do hear from them. They've had sixty-nine years to speak up, and in Israel they actually could. As for the other, one state -- or perhaps three states. But we can both think of how either solution could collapse into yet another war -- the one-state into a civil war, the three-state into a general war.

Yes there is. The Palestinians are living in extreme poverty and no way to get out because all their resources are taken from them by the Israelites.

You're blaming the wrong party here: Jordan could have resettled every displaced person, either in Jordan or elsewhere, AND helped them to prosperity. There is absolutely no effort by any Arab state, far or near, to succor their displaced coreligionists, either by government programs or private charitable ones. Zero. Zip. Nada. They'd rather have their cats-paw to fight proxy wars with. The Arabs are the warmongers, and my sympathy for these warmongers is, well, scant. Yours is too great.

. . .you know just as well as I do that race has nothing to do with the economic boom but outside resources. America and the west have never helped an Arab nation like we have Israel, don't even go there.

The Israelis started without us, and they can continue on their own initiative. They are not the American economy's sock puppet, you know. The Arabs never showed the same degree of initiative. Our foreign aid to Egypt, for one example, is of the same order of magnitude as our foreign aid to Israel. It is less, yes, but two billion dollars annually isn't pocket change.

Maybe you should look at yourself the same way with the Israelites. Both sides have committed genocide on each other and now it is time to stop.

It's always time to stop genocide, but the Israelis, knowing restraint, don't think genocidally, and the Arabs, based on the evidence of their own literature and newspapers, clearly do. The Israelis are allergic to genocide and will remain so. It's ingrained in the culture, I believe ineradicably.

What the fuck are you talking about?!?!?! Israel has been expanding its border and occupying its surrounding countries, kicking the local Palestinians out of their homes forcing them into poverty.

Ask why the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan does nothing to eradicate or alleviate their poverty, but keeps them right there on the Middle Eastern equivalent of reservations. No Palestinian is allowed to seek his betterment in friendlier climes, is he? There, I say, is the problem.

We expanded our borders in a mighty migration of smallholders. Are we in the wrong by reason of migration from a worse situation to a better? If your ancestors didn't figure it was all to the good to come here, you'd be writing from Europe. If Cro-Magnon early modern humans didn't migrate into Europe, we'd all be ... miffed at GEICO.

Yes, Israel did get attacked first but that is because the western nations illegally put a nation in their neighbors land kicking out the neighbor population.

There's a law forbidding the establishment of new nations? New one on me! Maybe it's only against the law in the Arab states.

No, I don't hate the Jews or most forms of Zionism (even though I disagree with it), just the extreme form we have now.

Oh yeah? What's better? How do I distinguish the foundations of your views from outright antisemitism, then?

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