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Originally posted by adamzion
I can't even begin to respond to this post. Clearly, Tom does not feel that Israeli soldiers have the right to fire back when attacked. And, yes, rocks and Molotov cocktails thrown at you *do* constitute attacks. Ditto buses driven into crowds at bus stops. Ditto car bombs exploding in sidewalk markets.

The answer: definitely **NOT**. Peace keepers do not have the right to fire live ammunition at anyone throwing rocks as demonstrated in restrictions and difficulties expressed, for example, in the recent news reports assoicated with the Canadian UN General from Rwanda. Any peace loving human knows that fact. Peace keepers are only allowed limited response to Molotov cocktails and only in a very restricted set of events. Adam should know better. Firing tanks and amoured helicopters in full war mode is a complete violation of Peace Keeping anywhere - except in the Israeli army? Go figure. The Israeli Army is special? It can violate peace keeping standards that the US Army cannot? Is that why the Israeli soldiers had no problem creating a massacre of Palestinian women and children in Lebanon? Their definition of peace keeping can be different? Why? Are they a Master Race with special exceptions to Peace Keeping?

Logic takes us farther. The Israeli army is a victim of their top management. 85% of all problems are **directly** traceable to top management. Ariel Sharon is top of that list. His political party routinely advocates racism and did everything to create the resulting intifada. Evil top management (ie. Likud) has been defined, using layers and reams of facts and postings from RESPONSIBLE news sources. Likud not only 'all but murdered Rabin', but they did everything to destroy any and all peace settlements.

The Army is now stuck with the resulting and justifiable intifada. Justifiable? Oppressed people throughtout history are expected to respond in kind. One oppressed people were the American Colonies. American Colonists were never as oppressed as Palestinians AND non-Jewish Israelis are today - and yet.... Considering what oppressed people in Israel have put up with, it is a miracle that violence has remains so limited.

Your mind boggles when faced with facts that are emotionally denied. Deny: "For the first time for many years, Israelis are murmuring about the possibility for a wider war ... people recollect Mr Sharon's grand strategy behind the invasion of Lebanon". At least The Economist is not in denial. The attitude of Israel IS the mindset of a penis licking Ariel Sharon. Things in Israel have become that bad.

What were those Israeli settlers doing in the West Bank? Stealing property in violation of Israeli law AND in violation of the Oslo Accords. Why? Because not enough Jews stood up to a racist Likud party and its motherfucking, enemy even of all Americans, Ariel Sharon and his co-conspirator, the petty theif Netanyahu. Not enough Jews even protected their own Supreme Court because the court demanded Israeli law be enforced. The law and Court must be wrong because it protected non-Jews? Go figure.

Peace keepers from Britian did not fire on Indians who threw rocks .... in 1948! Why is firing live ammunition now acceptable in 2001? Racism, or just emotional denial of facts? It is a tough choice that does boggle the mind - racism or denial - which is it?

Originally posted by adamzion
When the UN kills civilians in a "peacekeeping" operation such as in Bosnia, Kosova, or Rwanda, it apparently meets with the Western media's approval. But when organized militia cowardly use civilians as "human shields," and the PA even has <b>rewards</b> for any parent who can demonstrate that a child died in such "service," Israel apparently has no right to take any steps to defend itself..

The UN never intentionally attacked civilians with advanced military weapons in Bosnia, Kosova, or Rwanda. Only the enemies of peace did that - another Sharon look-a-like called Milosevik. If Milosevik can do it, then so can the Israeli Army?

The above wild claim is classic, Nazi like, propaganda used against Czechs to justify a military massacre!!! UN peace keepers NEVER attacked the civilian population. You know better than to use outright lies with me. That will not stand. This is a strong, properly directed, and stinging admonishment to Adam for tarnishing this discussion with 'Communist Cold War' type lies. Adam - these lies are why I suspect, with each post, a) that you are now Likud, b) why you cannot respond to posted facts (ie. stealing of Palestinian lands), c) why you justify live ammunition against rock throwing children, and d) why you posted that embarrassingly obvious propaganda nonsense in http://www.facts4peace.com .

Great men sent women to face down oppressers - Ganghi. Great men sent children to face down oppressers - Martin Luther King. That is what great leaders of oppressed people must do when humanity's enemies control the Army. Children throwing rocks against an unlawful oppressor is normal throughout history.

Furthermore, when parents try to stop children from joining the intifada (a published fact that Adam repeatedly denies) AND when those children must stand up to Tanks, THEN the oppressor is not a peace keeper. The picture 'Man vs Tank' tells us how corrupt the Israeli powers-that-be have become. Just as a burning Buddist priest tried to warn us same about another corrupt government - S VietNam - then see the picture Man vs Tank.

Supporters of a corrupt governments would blame the kid and his parents OR the priest and his religion.

Man vs Tank defines the Middle East because 1) Palestinians have land and property stolen without due process (again in the US news weekly and not denied even by Adam), 2) even non-Arab members of Israel's Knesset can have their homes burned with no police protection or investigation (only a Master Race attitude would permit that to happen), and 3) Israelis routinely settle in the West Bank and Gaza in direct violation of International proclaimations AND in direct violation of agreements signed by the Israeli government. Man vs Tank defines how corrupt and racist a power behind that tank has become.

The mind only boggles that so many examples of racism result in "Not One" denial or apology.

I started this discussion with strong beliefs that Likud is out of control. However just what I read here - the lack of any coherent response to many news reports and other facts - I must suspect that a diseased mentality exists far beyond the Likud party. Ethnic cleansing is not just the attitude of Likud. Israeli ethnic cleansing is acceptable even in the US! I am appauled to be forced to conclude that an anti-humanity bias exists among American Jews - and that is even scarier. Yes - the mind boggles that there is not one denial of published facts and resulting conclusions both in this thread and in its sibling thread in Current Events.

However victims have been blamed??? No apologies for violations of laws or Human Rights. Just blame the victims. Go figure.