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Originally Posted by Ibram
What the hell?
The man was a communist! Well, okay, a socialist.
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For a few years, yes he was. Experience of these converted him away; hence, Orwell's work amounts to an inoculation against socialist totalitarianism and to some degree against socialist niceguyism too.
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He fought with the anarcho-syndicalists in Spain!
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That being a reflection of the above. Young men volunteer for war, Orwell no less than any other.
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The only way you could possibly use Orwell as an argument against 'leftism' is if either A.) you thought that the dystopian society he created was what he wanted, which it wasnt, or B.) you thought the society he created was good, and disagreed with him.
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A. Some part of him always rather did; there are online essays on Orwell's life and work noting a "well-concealed totalitarian streak" in his makeup.
Animal Farm and
1984 open a couple of windows on hell, hence again the inoculation. Read them and see if I'm not right; I know I've linked you to a
1984 e-book, and I hope you profited by it. Fascism and leftism's totalitarian phase are the same thing; a bird couldn't live on the difference between the two. The Nazis and the Soviets fought as hard as they did not because they were antitheses; far from it: they were competitors. Each one even tried setting up as a sort of atheist religion, with their respective Parties being the objects of worship. This worship can be seen at several points in
1984 -- the cinema scene, the later parts of Smith's time in the Ministry of Love, and the last paragraph in the book.
B. This proposition is illogical. I doubt I could both disagree
and think it good -- not about an overall social order, which seems to be the context you intend. I'm sure on consideration you'll agree.
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So either youre an idiot or a fascist, your choice.
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I know you'd like to be as unfair to me as possible for as long as possible, but I urge you not to pursue such a mug's game. My choice is actually "smarter than you, and antifascist in ways you likely are not." Figure out what those ways are. It's very difficult for a leftist to really be an antifascist. And remember I still have thirty-three more years in the world than you do. Experience tells. So do apostrophes, btw.
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DanaC, what you want me to stop doing is precisely what I must keep on doing. Humanity is served by democracy. Humanity is trammeled by anything lesser -- have you noticed our opposition being about
anything but trammeling? You should be downright rabid against them for that sin. I certainly am. You know humanity is very well served by democracy, from your own experience living in a constitutional monarchy and within a tradition of limited government beginning at Runnymede with the Magna Carta -- and the
Charter of Liberties, ref'd and linked here.
Too little government is dangerous, and too much is destructive and impoverishing. These extremes are not bipolar conditions, binary states, but a continuum. In a fluid political order, the balance first tilts one way, then the other.