[Griff]

Careful Shawnee you're sounding like a CS.

The part that Radar fails to acknowlege is that those rights which he, I, and the founders agree to be critical are seen by the courts and people of the US as negotiable if not immoral. Right now competing ideologies rule the field. I was talking to a teenager about video surveilance a while back. He found nothing worrisome in being on camera everywhere outside his front door (not that he respects property rights), of course his Dad is a public school social studies teacher... To be lead off-track by discussions of 18th century philosophy is to do the work of the Statists, writing off libertarians as the people who would put nukes in our basements and the poor in the streets. It is tempting to try to explain everything with one perfect system, but it isn't practical.