[jaguar]

I’m currently wearing my new favorite t-shit *don't fuck with me or ill saw off your legs* courtesy of Unamerican

*rubs hands with glee as he pulls out a verbal chainsaw*
Oh good this is going to be fun.
Ill answer all in one long winding post.

First of all on the issue of the Hiroshima/Nagasaki bombings. Death toll quotes form an Old New Yorker magazine came to a total of around 200,000. Ok that figure was bullshit and the example was flawed. At the same time it can be totally removed from the equation, yes it world have been very messy, but it did stop them a ground war would have been worse you are correct. Pardon me on that. At the same time it is worthless for this because if you think nuking Afghanistan is going to stop these people you got another thing coming. Sure could nuke Afghanistan/Pakistan/Uzbekistan/Iran/Saudi Arabia/Indonesia/Sudan etc and take out about a quarter of the worlds population you might solve it, a bit but if your advocating that I think you should <censored>. ON otp of that you better nuke all teh 65 countries that have al-queda cells, including the US and most of Europe. Ever heard of the expression 'Burning down your house to kill a mouse'?


Now, on with the show.

Hrm. I don't think I said anything about this. I'm not going to bother scrolling down and reading what I actually said, but I'll just address this right now.

I never said he would, its matter of degrees, not absolutes.

I. Know. This. So. Do. Most. Of. The. Citizens. Of. My. Country. I. Am. Going. To. Stop. The. Dramatic. Pausing. Now.

OK then JUST stop TALKING in CAPITALs is that OK??????

Hrm. I don't think I said anything about this. I'm not going to bother scrolling down and reading what I actually said, but I'll just address this right now.

'Nuff said me thinks.

There's a saying... "All Indians. No Chiefs." That's what it's like over there... one guy steps up 'cause he's pretty sharp and he's got a ton of money. And people flock to him to ease their suffering 'cause they think that's what's going to happen if they "martyr" themselves for Allah. All it takes is a LEADER and these people will follow. If you consistently KILL their terrorist leaders, you consistently take away their ability to operate effectively. That is the goal.

You know there is only one truly great line that I’ve heard in a game and that is from Deus Ex (level 1 boss to be accurate)

"you cannot fight ideas with bullets"

Israel has been killing terrorist leaders for decades, done fuck all good. You don't seem to understand that while VALID GRIVBENCES exist (troops in Saudi and Support for a very Xenophobia Israel) people will be pissed. Leaders are irrelevant in the big picture. (I gotta watch this Marxist stuff

Maybe you have to live here to understand. This is one of the things that constantly amaze me about you - you're perfectly willing to sit back and toss out armchair speculation about things you have nearly NO CLUE about. Do you see me talking about Australia like I'm some fucking expert? No. Why? Because I've never lived there and I don't know shit about what it is to be an Australian. Yet you seem to have the United States all figured out from half way around the world. Do you live here? Did you vote in our last election? Do you understand what it is to live in a country that was FOUNDED on a few basic freedoms that CANNOT be taken away; to understand that in 1776, against OVERWHELMING ODDS, MEN FOUGHT AND DIED so that juju and Tony and tw and I could sit here and express our stupid opinions without fearing that someone would kill us for it. DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA what our freedom has bought for the rest of the world? If the United States didn't set the example, where do you think Australia would be right now?

Fark man you just don't get it. Those ideals, those freedoms ARE IN DANGER OF BEING TAKEN AWAY BY YOUR FUCKING GOVERMENT!!!
DMCA, SSSCA, Anti-terror bil. Corperate money is going to snuff out the stuff you hold so dear. You government blocked a bill designed to stop exploitation of tax-havens? Why? Coz of over 300k given within about a week by Financial groups. *sighs* McCain’s campaign finance reform bill needed to be passed, maybe a stronger form would be good too. Sadly it won’t happen.
Wake up and smell the coffee!!! There are allot of people with allot of money that think that the stupid little constitution is getting in their way of getting alto more money and they are buying your fucking government to shit all over it. Look I think those things are fantastic too, that’s why I’m so fucking pissed off geeez.

I'm pretty fucking tired of this conversation. I'm pretty fucking tired of people stating the most ludicrous things and not bothering to offer any evidence. I'm done.

What evidence do you want? That the Anti-terror bill impinges on your fundamental freedoms? Not hard. Point out where I’m talking out my ass (except for the 1 million figure, I do apologise for that) and ill back it up.

I’m no fucking expert but i read, think and debate allot, i know what i know. I know the SSCA will cripple free software, I know that the Anti-terror bill will weaken the US constitution, I know that these things are not internal US issues, they have GLOBAL impact. No I didn't vote in your last election, not that it would have made a difference whether I did or not the Supreme Court decided that one. I also don't see how that has any impact on this discussion, I still have a personal interest in what the US government is going, because they are the most powerful one on earth.

On to rusotto

Even if I accept this scenario (and I don't; it would only result from doing a half-assed job), that's 5 years of attacks prevented. Not so bad. And since these assholes are going to have grievances which will be accepted by their fellow fanatics whether reasonable or not, one more isn't going to make a difference.

You think you can kill every single terrorist in the Middle East? You really think that? 5 years of attacks stopped? Well considering the anthrax is still flowing severe bombing of Afghanistan and capturing all those people doesn’t seemed to have much impact. Trying to stop terrorism with pure force is like trying to kill bamboo, you can kill it everywhere it comes up but its still there (as i'm discovering in the front garder at the moment), under the ground, waiting. You cannot fight ideas with bullets.

If you want to solve the issue, there's two ways to go about it. One is to destroy Al-Queda and any other organization involved in terrorism. This means destroying all their fixed assets (hence Afghanistan), killing or imprisoning anyone with a position of power within the organization, infiltrating or destroying all their means of communication, confiscating or destroying their movable assets, etc. The other is total isolationism

How about solving the issues that give this cause popular support. Troops in Saudi Arabia and support of an Israel that is doing nothing to create peace???? There are also economic and cultural issue but these two alone I think would remove a lot of support. People over there just nwat to get on with their lives for crying out loud without being bombed/beaten up/shot. I have a friend in Isreal who knows Palstinians, most just want to live out their lives without being in constant fear of being shot.

People kill themselves without a good reason all the time.

Maybe not valid reasons to you but I’m sure they are to those people. In he case of suicide bombers they clearly think what they are doing is worth sacrificing their lives for.

The key as I see it is to remove the popular support, extremism needs it to really do that much.

Syc: The stuff the US is based on is fantastic, I think the US has done some great stuff. Aid to other countries is a delicate issue, it would be cynical but I’d say much of it has ulterior motives. I like the stuff the US is based on, Jefferson said himself “I hope we snuff at berth of monied corporations” I bet he’s spinning in his grave about what their creation has become.

Whoever is the biggest is always going to be in the spotlight and a rallying point for a common enemy. You can't make an omelet without breaking a few eggs. At the same time there is a limit to everything, it’s not the US I hate. It’s who have exploited its freedoms, namely corporations.

juju: I think you have been proven to be totally correct =)

PPTs(post-posting thoughts):
Argh my posts are getting as long as tws!
I know i've antoganised a few people here, i hope this clears things up a bit. I guess there is laot fo truth in the saying that money is the root of all evil, coz there sure is alot of it washing around congress, personally i think this is a very bad thing (see my thread in politics for more rambelings about this)

That Jefferson quote might be slightly off on the wording ,gotta check.