[classicman]

There can be different discussions, one may be of what is (based upon facts) and another could be a discussion of ideals which MAY be supported with facts. The latter leads to a discussion of ideals and desires. Its not only about what is, but what we want to make it as well. Whether a court has ruled one way or another is meaningless in the second. It also may turn out to be meaningless in the first as well.