[jaguar]

as soon as you accept the life of the fetus, so many other issues become trivial.

Wel i'm glad you find that such an easy concept to swallow, i don't. To assume a group of to start off with, 2 cells has the same rights as a person is well.......silly? If cells have the same rights as people then surely plants should have the same rihgts as animals? After all just because one is not concious shouldn't mean it doesn't have the right to the same rights. Its still alive, right? What makes these cells human? They could be reproducted very easily in a lab, heck they could be growing in a lab. While what is human is an incredibly murky ground the key concept that has been with us for centuries is conciousness, for a long time the arguement was that we were higher than everythign else because we were concious and animals are not, while that opinion is under fire the central concept fo conciousness being quintesential to what makes us human has not gone away. Every sperm and egg has the potential to become a person, as does every little bunch of cells, keyword: potential. (i decided to put my opinion as fact as that seems to be blase around this thread and at least i have decent backing)

I believe that you cannot hope to define a point in fetal development at which a fetus is "alive", "human", "conscious", what have you. From the moment of conception, the fetus is a living human being with all the rights and privileges of you or I.

See above, when do cells become a fetus?

Re: rape, incest, etc... I can understand that these assaults are horribly scarring, painful events for a woman. However, aborting the child will not make the memory of the event disappear. For nine months, the mother will have to literally carry around a reminder of a traumatic event. I do not envy this burden. Once again, this is a non question. Would you kill another individual to avoid that burden?

I hate to be offensive but your are STUPID AND CALOUS BEYOND THE RELMS OF HUMAN COMPREHENSION. Goddamn have fucking......words fail me. LEts get personal. A freind of mine, 17 was raped. Date raped, drugged and raped. Yes, she got pregnant. SHe had a very early abortion. Oddly enough. Now first of all you seem to dismiss jsut how traumatic this is wiht a quick wave of your hand - how the hell can you? This is something that often SCREWS PEOPLE UP FOR LIFE, its not like somehting you get over in a couple of weeks..... Not to mention the fact the kid, belonging to a guy that violated you in the most horrible way doesn't dissipear when he's born, she then has to LOOK AFTER THE CHILD DIPSHIT. As for your psuedojustification that a bunch of cells is more important than anyhing else see above. Sorry but for obvious reasons - this particular opinion kinda gets to me.

Even if I knew I would never be the victim, I still think theft should be illegal. So, it's not the fact that I feel I may be hurt that makes me put "my moral standards" on other people for theft. For me, it is a question of decent human rights.

So we're back to rights, and what decent human rights are...good luck defining that. Of course i could say that your definition of "decent human rights" is still putting your morals on others....

As for the "type of people" who say that life begins at conception, I contend that you call them crazy (or whatever it is that you called them) simply because you don't agree with them.

As now proven by someone how fits two of my cirteria of a pro-lifer very snugly that opinion and such extremes as no abortion in cases of rape seem to go hand in hand. I'm sure you'd think it crazy if someone raped you at knifepoint in an alley and then expected you to keep the child.