[richlevy]

Originally posted by Lady Sidhe
Not saying it's right, mind you, but it seems that all this "iraqi prisoner abuse" came out after the burning of the civilians.

Payback can be a bitch.

And right now some Iraqi somewhere is saying the same thing about the beheading. That attitude can not only start a race to the bottom, it can grease the track.

And you know, it seems to me that people have forgotten the outrage they felt on 9/11. Back then, we were ready to kick some ass. Everyone was behind Bush. Now, people are more worried about the enemy than they are about the allies. We got Sadaam--which is a good thing, because whomever thinks that he wouldn't have jumped right on the Al-Q bandwagon, if he wasn't on it already, is living in a dream world.

So the president took our outrage, our determination, and our goodwill, and used it to invade the wrong fucking country!, against the advice and wishes of most of the world and a number of his advisors. As for Saddam Hussein, a secular Sunni leader persecuting a Shiite majority, supporting a Shiite Islamist terrorist organization which would likely turn on him in an instant, yes I have some serious doubts. So far the only people who were dumb enough to voluntarily back Al-Q without realizing they had their own agenda, back when they were the muhajadeen, ]was us.

Just because we haven't gotten the big guy yet doesn't mean this was a failure. All of a sudden, people are talking about how Bush did this, and how he did that....they forget that they were right behind him when this shit happened. I'm not a humongous Bush fan, but I think he did the best that could be done at the time, and I still support his decision to go to war. It was what had to be done. Had we not retaliated, it would've been open season on the wussy USA, and everyone knows it.

I'm not arguing Afghanistan, but this constant confusion between "War on Terror" and Iraq, by otherwise rational people, still confuses me. Again, Bush took the ball during 9/11, to his credit. He then did one right thing (Afghanistan) and then ran in the wrong direction and scored for the other team. Thanks to Iraq, there are probably more potential terrorists out there than there ever have been. Bush might as well pose for an Al-Qaeda recruiting poster.

And speaking of screw-ups, didn't Clinton know about all these threats ahead of time? If anyone should've been forced to resign, it was HIM. I don't think that we've ever had a worse president, IMO. He was like the idiot brother you hid in the closet when company came over, so he wouldn't embarrass you. Interesting, too, I think, that Sadaam thought Clinton was just the shit....

Comparing Bush and Clinton, and coming up with Clinton as the idiot? Aside from some truly stupid personal behavior, Clinton at least had people looking in the right places. As far as respect goes, Clinton had the respect of many world leaders. Compare that to Bush, who took a large deposit of goodwill following 9/11 and completely squandered it.

I think we should be more concerned with our (AMERICA'S---remember America? The wronged country?) safety than about bitching after the fact. It's easy to play monday-night quarterback when you're not in the hot seat. Bush did what he felt was right, and everyone backed him then---but now they blame him for everything from the prisoner abuse to the sand flies.

Everyone was dumb enough to give him a blank check on Iraq. Congress should have demanded consultation before attacking. Bush claimed a 'clear and present' danger, invaded without considering the consequences, as usual ignored the more pessimistic assessments of manpower and resources needed, and stuck the entire country in a giant sandtrap. I cannot think of anyone who does not believe that this is "Bush's War". Noone in Congress demanded we invade Iraq. I think even those allies who had troops on the ground with us were suprised that we finally attacked instead of opting to contain and pressure Hussein.

I agree that those who abused the prisoners should pay for it. While I may understand their feelings, I don't agree with their actions. But I also think it's time to start worrying more about the safety of our country, and relaying the fact that we're not going to take this terrorist shit, than we are about giving comfort to the enemy, who'd probably treat allied prisoners the same way, considering how much they hate Americans.

Actually, since there is no single group of insurgents, it is hard to gauge a single response. Some captives get medical attention, some are executed. Considering you have two major groups, plus random terrorist cells, putting a single face on the enemy is impossible. Ask a US soldier in Vietnam if he would rather fall into the hands of the NVA or the Khmer Rouge. And by getting caught torturing prisoners (yes it really is torture), we are giving aid and comfort to the enemy in handing them the greatest propoganda victory of the war.

BTW, the whole "let's do this to them because they'd probably do the same to us" ranks right up there with "It's ok to steal/lie/cheat because everyone else does it" as one of the lamest moral prevarications ever used.

We're rebuilding their frigging country for them, like we always do after we kick someone's ass. If they were smart, they'd let us do it and wait for us to leave, instead of torturing and killing civilians, which is going to result in backlash, no matter what. That's just human nature.

Human nature is to resist outside interference. We really don't care about them. They know this. We really didn't go to war to 'free Iraq'. They know this too. If we hadn't done such a half-assed job, they might have gotten with the program, but it's obvious we didn't commit enough resources at the outset to get the job done, even without civil unrest.

As for the abuse. Deep down, the government wishes the pictures never got out. They weren't that upset by the initial reports of abuse. Like many Americans, the concept really doesn't take hold until you see the pictures. It is especially troubling when you consider that there was no due process and some guys in that jail are probably innocent jerks who were picked up off the street, or because some neighbor wanted to make points with the US or was mad at them.

The US is now in the business of 'disappearing' people. This means grabbing someone and not even telling their families where they are. Imagine your son or daughter going out to run an errand and never returning. Going to authorities meets a blank wall. Then you hear that a notorious prison is back in business and that there are abuses going on. And you still cannot find out if you son/daughter/cousin/uncle is alive.

This is supposed to win hearts and minds and make everyone believe we're the good guys?