[KGZotU]

I wouldn't call it the norm to get out either. You weren't discussing norms, however.

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

Ummm.....America right now. If you don't think that it is damn near impossible for some people to get out of poverty you are very naive.

Here is my complete answer. You claim that it is 'damn near impossible' for some people to get out of poverty. Let's disregard the mentally and physically handicapped. Anybody currently in poverty can do one of the following to get into the middle class:

1: Over the course of two years, find an unskilled manual labor job that pays a reasonable starting wage.

2: Over the course of four years in a minimum wage job, attain an associates degree to qualify for skilled manual or office work. Over the course of the following two years, find a job in that field.

Would you assert that there is anyone in America that can't do one of those two things? Is there anyone that can not become an HVAC technician in this country? Is there anyone who can not get an AS in Business and become an office mail boy? You say "some people," who are these "some people" who can not achieve a modicum of skill and find an employer who desires it?

I didn't suggest that 40% of America is irresponsible. I'm not sure where you got that number in particular; a little Google-ing suggests that ~12% of Americans live in poverty. I said that anyone who acts frugally and responsibly can get out of poverty. There is another half of the equation. They must make such an achievement a sincere goal.

So, my fully qualified position is that anybody who forms the sincere goal of lifting themselves out of poverty, even unto the middle class, can do so providing that they act responsibly.

I responded to your original post because I felt that you were forming an allegorical America:

Originally Posted by piercehawkeye45

God, it is IMPOSSIBLE to have all freedoms in one politcal government. It is my freedom to make as much money at the expense of others and it is also my freedom to persue happiness which is impossible when I have to work two minimum wage jobs to feed my children. These two scenarios can not work together so you will either have to pick one or try to find the middle ground between them.

You were kind enough to confirm. The truth is, in America you almost entirely get to choose how much success you want to achieve. If you possess any aptitude in a field, you can, through determination, put yourself in its top 20%. The upper strata might be fought over by those of great aptitude and determination, but the top 20% is open to anyone with an initial bit of skill.

Alternatively, if someone is in poverty and they don't care to make a sincere effort to get out, that is their choice as well. Those who wish to make the effort to succeed are not forced to support those who don't wish to make the effort to succeed.

--Joe