[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by Cyclefrance

If we go back far enough you can blame us Brits.

Long before Brits, or Britain for that matter.

We're pretty good at carving up other people's land...

The main two reasons for the carving was to reward important people, and separate enemies from each other. Now people are mobile, the enemies can't be separated that easily.

For me, human life is too precious to permit to be wasted.

I certainly approve of that sentiment, but as I sit here reading about/pondering, the fucked up state of the middle east, nobody is kicking in my door. I'm reasonably certain there won't be anything coming through the roof, and I'm brazenly sitting right next to a window.

...but where we, Western governments that is, have the ability to influence a situation then I believe we should do so.

Those days are gone, especially with the cold war heating up. No unified Mom & Dad against petulant terrorist, they're playing off divorced Mom against Dad.

And it seems that maybe we do have the ability in terms of what is happening in Gaza, as we control the purse strings at least on one side.

The somewhere between $3 and $8 Billion the US gives Israel every year? In reality it's like the birthday card from grandma with $10 tucked in it. That money is appreciated, and will be used, but doesn't mean a tinkers damn to my lifestyle. It's more important as a reassurance that despite how I've fucked up, grandma still loves me.

The statement I made that 'no innocent person deserves to die' is my view of what the West should have as its overriding objective, such that any strategy it devises or action it takes to try to resolve the situation should only proceed provided that it upholds this objective.

That's a tough one for leaders that routinely write off millions of people as simply collateral damage in the control the empire game.

I think it's the right one, if you don't I'm happy to be convinced otherwise, but I'm looking for arguments as to how to stop what is happening continuing - and so views that there is a nuclear solution or that 'if you still live in Gaza, you're an idiot who deserves to die' aren't satisfactory solutions because, whether they were seriously meant or just expressions of frustration with the situation, they don't uphold the overriding objective that 'no innocent person deserves to die'.

I agree it's the right goal, and I hope those statements are from frustration over this never ending story, but then reality pops up and says, how? That's when people revert to the nuke and move quips as an escape from the migraine inducing puzzle.

Can the ordinary people influence their governments? Well, maybe they can. There's evidence that we are having some success at doing this over here,..

I look at what it took to get us out of Vietnam, at a time when the "people" still had some clout, the politicians still had to placate the masses to get reelected, and there weren't eleventy factions to align.
We've had relatively small groups (Sierra Club, Green Peace, Republicans) in which the supporters aren't offending their neighbors with picket signs, but using lobbyists and the courts to force big changes.

I know I haven't addressed individual criticisms of my earlier post.

Disagreement is not criticism.

I certainly don't think people here are ignorant...

Are to.

...so I will certainly apologise for creating that impression.

Never apologize.

I'm not sure what would be achieved by countering every point really,...

Don't you hate when people do that?

...but I will be back on some, just not tonight.

Sounds like a threat.

Who exactly was it who said that you will have more time on your hands once you reach retirement age? Certainly hasn't headed in this direction yet!

Some sadistic lying bastard. After you retire, you slow down and the world speeds up, until you've fallen and you can't get up.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

That is absolutely the primary goal. Minimization of death.
Coming close behind is maintaining and promoting the idea that human life is too precious to permit to be wasted. It'll be simple to do when everyone believes it.

That's more difficult than it sounds. At first it's like, well of course, who would not agree with that. Then it's, well, those crazy ______ terrorists. And those stupid _______ worshipers. Oh, the filthy ________ bastards. Etc, etc, ad infinitum.

Hey, maybe if we could get at least the major religions to condemn killing, we could... um.. nevermind.