Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me.... - Page 5

jaguar · 07-09-2004, 03:42 PM

I think catwoman meant in terms of foreign policy, not firearms ownership. For the record I have no problem with US firearms ownership.

Lookout, there are any positice points to the US but the sheer number, range and imact of the negatives simply outweight them from here. I spend a lot of time dealing with things that most people don't have to and a lot more time looking and who is pushing what, it's probably why I'm more annoyed. What any of this has to do with france is beyond me. I move around for various reasons, at the moment it's a mix of business and uni that keeps me shuffling around but usually it's just a love of travel. I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting.

lookout123 · 07-09-2004, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jaguar

What any of this has to do with france is beyond me...

... I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting.

eh, yer mom wears combat boots. and you are the one who brought france into it. you mentioned that they had peacekeepers in africa.

petty personal attacks? just because i single you out and direct my comments at you they are petty? interesting because when you throw out ridiculous broad brush insults on americans its just well-informed debate. strange.

you have yourself on such a pedastal it is laughable.

07-09-2004, 05:19 PM

I consider Switzerland to be my "second country" since my Mom is Swiss, and I am very proud of my Swiss heritage. So here's the answer to what good has one of Jag's countries done for anyone lately.

Switzerland was one of the earliest democracies. It was formed in 1291 when three cantons - Schwyz, Uri and Unterwalden - joined together to protect their borders. That beats the US by almost 500 years. Switzerland has also already had three women who filled the highest governmental office of that country, equivalent to our president. The US has yet to elect a woman as president, as we all know.

The Swiss were formidable fighters. Any Latin student who labored through Ceasar's Commentaries will have spent some time reading about the Swiss, or Helvetians. One of Ceasar's statements: "The Helvetians, because of their geographic situation, are hemmed in on all sides... They do not consider the extent of their territory sufficient either ... for their military prowess, or for their reputation for courage." The Swiss continued as formidable fighters throughout the Middle Ages. Many other kingdoms and powers hired Swiss soldiers because they were best in all Europe. Swiss mercenaries continued to serve in other armies for centuries to come and earned an unrivalled reputation for their skill and courage. Swiss soldiers fought to the last man defending the King of France in the French Revolution. Even today the Pope is protected by the Swiss Guard.

Interesting enough, it was the Swiss who founded the Red Cross in Geneva in 1863. The symbol for the Red Cross is the inverse of the Swiss national flag. Three Swiss have been recipients of the Nobel Peace prize, and at least 22 others have won Nobel prizes, mostly in the area of the sciences. This is a stunning achievement for a country of only about 6 million people.

Some famous Swiss: Albert Einstein, Carl Jung, Hermen Hesse, Jean-Paul Marat, Jean-Jaques Rousseau, and Paul Klee, to name only a few.

There has been much criticism of Swiss actions in WWII, and some of it is indeed deserved, but people need to keep in mind that Switzerland was surrounded on all sides by Hitler's armies and in order to help preserve its neutrality, the country was forced to make some unpaletable concessions. Despite this fact, Switzerland permanently sheltered 60,000 civilian refugees (0.85 % of the 1990 population) and 60,000 soldiers, most of them allied troops (amounting to a total of 1.7 % of the 1990 population). The US itself repeated turned away Jewish refugees and accomodated only some 250,000 Jewish refugees from 1939 to 1945 (0.1 % of the 1990 population), and, therefore, has no right to throw stones.

Given the fact that Switzerland is a small land-locked country with a small population in comparison with other Western countries, its current prosperity and the contributions its people have made to Western civilization is nothing short of stunning. We Americans are soooooo ignorant of other nations.

attachment: "The Dying Lion; Swiss memorial to its soldiers who fell defending the King of France.

jaguar · 07-09-2004, 05:36 PM

I think I've clarified my comments enough to make my point clear enough. On the flipside. I didn't drag france into this, someone, probably you brought it up for some reason, I retorted.

Your comments are petty personal attacks because of their nature, attacking my lifestyle and random odd claims about my disposition that have nothing to do with what's at hand. Maybe I should have used ad homium but latin is a dignified language and your comments are indeed very petty. If you care to point out the part where I said 'every single american is X' I would be glad, I could have sworn I described a European perspective on America and why. Obviously I've also listed a range of personal views, most of which were to do with the country as a whole rather than it's constitutions. If I'm on such a pedestal I'd love you to point out why and try and get me off.

So far you've shown a heck of a lot of indignation, a penchant for personal attacks and about as much substance as aerogel. Give me a shot, point out where I'm wrong on my points and what I'm missing that's so wonderful, I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.Hell check my early posts about firearms here if you have trouble believing that. Might require a little more than average-verses-GPD claims about foreign aid though. Of course it's much easier to squark random insults than make a durable point so I won't hold my breath.

lookout123 · 07-09-2004, 05:46 PM

eh, yer momma's so fat...

when she was laying on the beach, greenpeace gathered to help push her back out to sea.

07-09-2004, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

eh, yer momma's so fat...

when she was laying on the beach, greenpeace gathered to help push her back out to sea.

I would comment, but I'd think you'll be embarrassed enough next time you look at your own post.

I love my country enough so that I get outraged when it engages in counter-productive acts overseas, and I get embarrassed for my fellow countrymen when they start acting like the streotypical "ugly Americans." If I didn't give a damn, none of it would matter to me.

Oh well, sic transit gloria mundi .

lookout123 · 07-09-2004, 06:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marichiko

I would comment, but I'd think you'll be embarrassed enough next time you look at your own post.

mari - it would take a hell of a lot to embarrass me, but so you know - my last few posts were just a joke. jag is aware of that.

they were supposed to be stereotypical american responses... guess they worked - but i wasn't really insulting jag's mother.

xoxoxoBruce · 07-10-2004, 11:54 AM

Jag, you deal daily with institutions, corporations and government entities from the USA, that the average person here has no idea who they are or what they do, if they’ve heard of them at all. We know the people we meet, their actions and feelings and the general mood and feel. We get from the media what’s happening on a nationwide or worldwide basis but our personal knowledge is limited to our daily lives. When we hear someone attacking (verbally) Americans, we say “Hey that includes me, what the hell did I do?”
I think your perspective is formed by the people you deal with and they’re not representative of me or my attitudes. I also think that’s why you keep coming back to the Cellar, because you find the attitudes and comments you find here contradict more than reinforce what you see in your work.
Personally I’m interested in your take on things as a point of view from European dealing with American business and government entities. I wonder how much of your perspective is shared by Europeans that don’t have those dealings. You know, the average Joe, that only gets information from the media, like I do.

jaguar · 07-09-2004, 05:53 PM

quis est haec simia?

jaguar · 07-10-2004, 08:15 AM

and you wonder why

busterb · 07-10-2004, 08:23 AM

Here also

jaguar · 07-10-2004, 10:47 AM

Largely seperate issues. A lot of people of people have been pissed about that for a long time (the opposition leader, Mark Latham got a lot of kudos for standing up and calling howard an 'arse licker', an act that alone made him one of my favorite pollies) but the more recent issues is the trade agreement and the comments of the deputy of state who was over to the media about Labor's stance on keeping troops in Iraq should they win the election.

jaguar · 07-10-2004, 01:02 PM

Well you're right and to be honest, I wouldn't have a clue. There are lots of communities that are annoyed about different things. Most australian creative types are mad as hell about the new trade agreement for example but in the broader populace it's more complicated.

In Australia a mixture of resentment and a sense of resignation about America but direct impingement does raise ire, the article I pointed to you above is a common example and Labour is doing well off the back of a fair wave of anti-american feeling.

Europe is harder, there is a lot of feeling in Britain and I think Blair has felt it. I've seen a lot of people here (Switzerland) give the finger to the TV when bush comes on . Hating bush is very trendy to say the least. Even in very professional environments I've heard people make some not very polite comments. Bush personally is very, very toxic and certainly appears to embody what it is people dislike.

Most of the stuff that really irks me is not stuff that most people would be aware of in the slightest but there is a lot of feeling about other issues that are more about our place the in the world. Ask most people about why they are anti-war (and the vast majority are) and the answer will probably be something like "it was just for the oil", deep down it seems to me it's more a sense of indignation 'how dare they do that'.

07-10-2004, 01:57 PM

I would have to second Jag when it comes to the responses of my own family in Switzerland. They are all very intelligent, mostly highly educated people, and they despise Bush. My Aunt Elsa whom I am most in contact with, often expresses polite bewilderment about American foreign policy and just American customs in general. I've had I don't know how many conversations with her which began with her shaking her head and asking, "Why do you Americans...?"

jinx · 07-10-2004, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by marichiko

"Why do you Americans...?"

What? Why do we what? What do all us Americans exclusively do that has your freaking aunt Elsa so perplexed? I'm dying to know. Seriously.

07-09-2004, 03:42 PM	#1
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I think catwoman meant in terms of foreign policy, not firearms ownership. For the record I have no problem with US firearms ownership. Lookout, there are any positice points to the US but the sheer number, range and imact of the negatives simply outweight them from here. I spend a lot of time dealing with things that most people don't have to and a lot more time looking and who is pushing what, it's probably why I'm more annoyed. What any of this has to do with france is beyond me. I move around for various reasons, at the moment it's a mix of business and uni that keeps me shuffling around but usually it's just a love of travel. I'm sorry you can't seem to make a point without resorting to petty personal attacks, it must be very limiting. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 07-09-2004 at 03:44 PM.

07-09-2004, 05:19 PM	#3
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I consider Switzerland to be my "second country" since my Mom is Swiss, and I am very proud of my Swiss heritage. So here's the answer to what good has one of Jag's countries done for anyone lately. Switzerland was one of the earliest democracies. It was formed in 1291 when three cantons - Schwyz, Uri and Unterwalden - joined together to protect their borders. That beats the US by almost 500 years. Switzerland has also already had three women who filled the highest governmental office of that country, equivalent to our president. The US has yet to elect a woman as president, as we all know. The Swiss were formidable fighters. Any Latin student who labored through Ceasar's Commentaries will have spent some time reading about the Swiss, or Helvetians. One of Ceasar's statements: "The Helvetians, because of their geographic situation, are hemmed in on all sides... They do not consider the extent of their territory sufficient either ... for their military prowess, or for their reputation for courage." The Swiss continued as formidable fighters throughout the Middle Ages. Many other kingdoms and powers hired Swiss soldiers because they were best in all Europe. Swiss mercenaries continued to serve in other armies for centuries to come and earned an unrivalled reputation for their skill and courage. Swiss soldiers fought to the last man defending the King of France in the French Revolution. Even today the Pope is protected by the Swiss Guard. Interesting enough, it was the Swiss who founded the Red Cross in Geneva in 1863. The symbol for the Red Cross is the inverse of the Swiss national flag. Three Swiss have been recipients of the Nobel Peace prize, and at least 22 others have won Nobel prizes, mostly in the area of the sciences. This is a stunning achievement for a country of only about 6 million people. Some famous Swiss: Albert Einstein, Carl Jung, Hermen Hesse, Jean-Paul Marat, Jean-Jaques Rousseau, and Paul Klee, to name only a few. There has been much criticism of Swiss actions in WWII, and some of it is indeed deserved, but people need to keep in mind that Switzerland was surrounded on all sides by Hitler's armies and in order to help preserve its neutrality, the country was forced to make some unpaletable concessions. Despite this fact, Switzerland permanently sheltered 60,000 civilian refugees (0.85 % of the 1990 population) and 60,000 soldiers, most of them allied troops (amounting to a total of 1.7 % of the 1990 population). The US itself repeated turned away Jewish refugees and accomodated only some 250,000 Jewish refugees from 1939 to 1945 (0.1 % of the 1990 population), and, therefore, has no right to throw stones. Given the fact that Switzerland is a small land-locked country with a small population in comparison with other Western countries, its current prosperity and the contributions its people have made to Western civilization is nothing short of stunning. We Americans are soooooo ignorant of other nations. attachment: "The Dying Lion; Swiss memorial to its soldiers who fell defending the King of France. Attached Images

07-09-2004, 05:36 PM	#4
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	I think I've clarified my comments enough to make my point clear enough. On the flipside. I didn't drag france into this, someone, probably you brought it up for some reason, I retorted. Your comments are petty personal attacks because of their nature, attacking my lifestyle and random odd claims about my disposition that have nothing to do with what's at hand. Maybe I should have used ad homium but latin is a dignified language and your comments are indeed very petty. If you care to point out the part where I said 'every single american is X' I would be glad, I could have sworn I described a European perspective on America and why. Obviously I've also listed a range of personal views, most of which were to do with the country as a whole rather than it's constitutions. If I'm on such a pedestal I'd love you to point out why and try and get me off. So far you've shown a heck of a lot of indignation, a penchant for personal attacks and about as much substance as aerogel. Give me a shot, point out where I'm wrong on my points and what I'm missing that's so wonderful, I'll give you more ground than you think, I'm not against changing positions if you have evidence to back up your arguments.Hell check my early posts about firearms here if you have trouble believing that. Might require a little more than average-verses-GPD claims about foreign aid though. Of course it's much easier to squark random insults than make a durable point so I won't hold my breath. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain Last edited by jaguar; 07-09-2004 at 05:42 PM.

07-09-2004, 05:46 PM	#5
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	eh, yer momma's so fat... when she was laying on the beach, greenpeace gathered to help push her back out to sea. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

07-10-2004, 11:54 AM	#8
xoxoxoBruce The future is unwritten Join Date: Oct 2002 Posts: 71,105	Jag, you deal daily with institutions, corporations and government entities from the USA, that the average person here has no idea who they are or what they do, if they’ve heard of them at all. We know the people we meet, their actions and feelings and the general mood and feel. We get from the media what’s happening on a nationwide or worldwide basis but our personal knowledge is limited to our daily lives. When we hear someone attacking (verbally) Americans, we say “Hey that includes me, what the hell did I do?” I think your perspective is formed by the people you deal with and they’re not representative of me or my attitudes. I also think that’s why you keep coming back to the Cellar, because you find the attitudes and comments you find here contradict more than reinforce what you see in your work. Personally I’m interested in your take on things as a point of view from European dealing with American business and government entities. I wonder how much of your perspective is shared by Europeans that don’t have those dealings. You know, the average Joe, that only gets information from the media, like I do. __________________ The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.

07-09-2004, 05:53 PM	#9
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	quis est haec simia? __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-10-2004, 08:15 AM	#10
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	and you wonder why __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-10-2004, 08:23 AM	#11
busterb NSABFD Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: MS. usa Posts: 3,908	Here also __________________ I've haven't left very deep footprints in the sands of time. But, boy I've left a bunch.

07-10-2004, 10:47 AM	#12
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Largely seperate issues. A lot of people of people have been pissed about that for a long time (the opposition leader, Mark Latham got a lot of kudos for standing up and calling howard an 'arse licker', an act that alone made him one of my favorite pollies) but the more recent issues is the trade agreement and the comments of the deputy of state who was over to the media about Labor's stance on keeping troops in Iraq should they win the election. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-10-2004, 01:02 PM	#13
jaguar whig Join Date: Apr 2001 Posts: 5,075	Well you're right and to be honest, I wouldn't have a clue. There are lots of communities that are annoyed about different things. Most australian creative types are mad as hell about the new trade agreement for example but in the broader populace it's more complicated. In Australia a mixture of resentment and a sense of resignation about America but direct impingement does raise ire, the article I pointed to you above is a common example and Labour is doing well off the back of a fair wave of anti-american feeling. Europe is harder, there is a lot of feeling in Britain and I think Blair has felt it. I've seen a lot of people here (Switzerland) give the finger to the TV when bush comes on . Hating bush is very trendy to say the least. Even in very professional environments I've heard people make some not very polite comments. Bush personally is very, very toxic and certainly appears to embody what it is people dislike. Most of the stuff that really irks me is not stuff that most people would be aware of in the slightest but there is a lot of feeling about other issues that are more about our place the in the world. Ask most people about why they are anti-war (and the vast majority are) and the answer will probably be something like "it was just for the oil", deep down it seems to me it's more a sense of indignation 'how dare they do that'. __________________ Good friends, good books and a sleepy conscience: this is the ideal life. - Twain

07-10-2004, 01:57 PM	#14
marichiko Guest Posts: n/a	I would have to second Jag when it comes to the responses of my own family in Switzerland. They are all very intelligent, mostly highly educated people, and they despise Bush. My Aunt Elsa whom I am most in contact with, often expresses polite bewilderment about American foreign policy and just American customs in general. I've had I don't know how many conversations with her which began with her shaking her head and asking, "Why do you Americans...?"

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