Post-Traumatic Slave Disorder? You gotta be shitting me....

[xoxoxoBruce]

Originally Posted by marichiko

At home!

So there are no working poor, drug addicts or crazy people? Yeah sure, home is a home with locks on the outside of the door. :p

Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce

So there are no working poor, drug addicts or crazy people? Yeah sure, home is a home with locks on the outside of the door. :p

Believe it or not, Bruce, very few. Switzerland is not some utopia, but the problems Swiss society faces really do not include homelessness to any great extent. The Swiss, like the Americans, are a hard working industrious people. They also enjoy the advantage of having an unemployment rate that hovers around a mere two or 3 percent. Add to that the strong social safety nets that Switzerland (along with the rest of Europe) has in place, and it becomes highly unusual for any Swiss to find themselves homeless. When I last visited there some years back, Zurich did have a sort of equivalent to Amsterdamn's "needle park." The Swiss at that point had few laws regarding illegal drugs, so a small "scene" of sorts had developed near Zurich's downtown. My older Swiss aunt who is quite conservative was rather outraged about the whole thing and claimed that the majority of the denizens of "needle park" were not Swiss, but foreigners attracted by the easy availability of their favorate poisons. The whole thing was such an oddity that my then husband and I went down to the area to see it, and I was so impressed to see someone actually sleeping on a park bench in Switzerland that I took his picture. This was in the middle of the day, however. I never saw anyone sleeping on park benches or huddled in doorways at night. I have heard that since my last visit the Swiss have cracked down somewhat, and "needle park" no longer exists. Jag tells me that Switzerland is changing, but I'd be really surprised to encounter homeless people on the streets there, still. I'm sure Jag will correct me if things have changed so much in only a few years.

[lumberjim]

when was Live AID? whenever. that summer, my dad took me, my brother and my sister with him on a long business trip to SanFran. One evening, in China town, as we dined......in an authentic Chinese restaurant that specialized in Cantonese Cuisine......for some reason I remember my dad checking menus in the windows to see which way the restaurant leaned....4 men sat down at the adjacent table. Two of them were Texas Cowboys. String ties and all. They were probably in their thirties, and you could feel the excitement pouring off of them. The other two were very well dressed Frenchmen. They did not oozez excitement. They oozed horrified, embarrassed, disgusted, appalled, and superior. I remember being conscious of the fact that Americans are disliked by the French. I remember thinking of the irony of this situatuion. SOmehow, these very different men found themselves dining together in a quiet Chinese restaurant in China Town, and these two guffawing, big belt buckle wearing, buffoons were our country's representatives. If i had a picture of myself rolling my eyes, I would post it. the smilie would not do it justice.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Add to that the strong social safety nets that Switzerland (along with the rest of Europe) has in place, and it becomes highly unusual for any Swiss to find themselves homeless.

Safety nets? As in institutions? places to put them so they aren't homeless?

Are you asking about people like schizophrenics, Bruce? If so, I really do not know what Swiss societal and governmental policy is in their regard. Perhaps, Jag could enlighten us. I stand by my statement, however, that I can honestly say I saw no one who appeared to be homeless in my various visits to Switzerland up to about 1999.

[jaguar]

I can't speak for Zurich, I have little business in the German half but certainly in Lusanne it's pretty much unheard of. Incoming migrant populations, particularly from Africa and Eastern Europe have generated some problems in recent years, particularly drug related but compared to most places, it's virtually invisible. There is a very strong social net here, it's slightly different to much of Europe in that instead of a government controlled health network you instead have a legal obligation to have private health insurance which in general works very well. Switzerland has a stupidly high ratio of hospitals to population and a very high quality of medical care.

The drug issue is delt with with a carrot-stick system, prison sentances for posession are short and large comprehensive rehab programs exist, the combinations is effective as any I've seen. Compared to most places the police have a high visibility with regular foot patrols 24/7, there is nowhere here I would feel unsafe.

( PSSST! I don't think they're going to believe us, Jag. Americans think everyone must have a homeless population since the US does. I give up.)

[xoxoxoBruce]

OK, so there is nobody living on the streets because they put them somewhere via their “safety nets”.
We used to do that here but the courts ruled that is not legal. You can’t institutionalize someone against their will, unless they are a danger to someone, because that’s a violation of their constitutional rights. It really doesn’t matter what kind of care you offer most of these people because they won’t take it, of their own free will. Drugs(alcoholism) and mental illness are prevalent and rationality rare.
I suspect that Swiss families can force a family member off the streets, if necessary, whereas here, they can’t. Such is the nature of a system that stresses individual freedom.

[jaguar]

No you're jumping to conclusions. Very few people choose to live on the street and what varios safety nets do is avoid that happening and give people help getting their lives back on track, I fair to see how you inferred that implied forceable institutionalization.

Switzerland has very well enforced civil rights, we have far greater control over our government than pretty much any other major democratic state. To pass a major bill it must go to referendum, we don't simply elect someone, watch what they do and pass judgement, we have to approve every major bill from spending changes to taxation to criminal law, all must pass referendum. Thus here, unlike the US, it is close to impossible to ram though unpopular legislation and hope the electorate forgets in time for the next election.

I second Jag's description of the Swiss democratic process. Switzerland truely is a government of the people. Also just because a person is a schizo who won't take his meds does not mean he has to be on the street. I know a person like that who has never been homeless - just bounces between a group home and the state hospital. He also has a family that tries their best for him, and they don't order him bundled off somewhere for life. There really is not all that much drug and alcohol treatment available here for the low income/homeless. The Salvation Army is it, and they're only around in larger towns.

[xoxoxoBruce]

Alcoholics/addicts don't want to be where they can't do it and any of the mentally ill that are paranoid don't want to be even in overnight shelters, here. This may be because of the quality of the shelters, I don't know.
So somehow the Swiss are convincing these same people to come in to their facilities, without forcing them. I wonder if it's the difference in the facilities, or the social background they come from? I also wonder how immigrants would react to the Swiss system, not having been brought up in Swiss culture?

[jaguar]

Well I know the biggest problem with the drug trade here is african migrants, they simply have no fear of the prison system, compared to where they come from it's a vacation. There is vague stirrings of a deportation system but whether it'll see the light of day is another matter.

[wolf]

Jag, your opinion of americans is based on no direct contact with us in our natural habitat.

We're quite different when we're not behaving as tourists.

Getcher ass over here, boy, and see the US firsthand.

[Clodfobble]

I have always been told (i.e., even before this administration) that all Europeans hate Americans--except Texans. Supposedly they all love Texans. I guess perhaps that's no longer true since it's widely known that Bush is Texan?

[Beestie]

To pick up Wolf's and Clod's point, Jag has never been to the South, either. They'd warm that cold, European heart of his with some down home hospitality, boiled peanuts and ice-cold beer, a good college football tailgate party, a low-country boil, some good bar-B-que, a shot or two of Jack Daniels and last but far from least, a bevy of the South's finest belles.

Jag has no idea how cool Americans can be.