Ecologically-friendly nuclear

[russotto]

There used to be a generator at Barbadoes. Also a PECO training facility. I believe both have been shut down. After that there was a substation; that caught fire a few years ago. I'm not sure if it's in use at all now.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

I was playing around with Google Earth, and traced the high-tension lines coming from Cromby. One set leads down to Barbadoes (sp?) Island near Norristown, where it links up with another plant of some sort - is this the recycling plant? - and then seems to head down the Schulykill towards the city. The other set goes across the county, links up with a much bigger set from Limerick, and winds up at a substation on North Wales Rd near Rt 73.

Limerick sends what appears to be a smaller (230Kv) transmission line down to Cromby. Cromby then sends power to Philadelphia and to North Wales. The line to Philadelphia would pass through a switchyard in Barbadoes (I believe it was once a generator station and is now only a training facility). That line from Cromby also powers substations in the vicinity of The Cellar.

Limerick does not connect to North Wales. The backbone goes farther north to Whitpain and Soudertown where the backbone feeds NJ.

Another switchyard in that Cromby line would be Plymouth Meeting. The Mongomery County Recycling Center would be somewhere adjacent to this switchyard; located somewhere as the Blue Route intersects Ridge Pike and the PA Turnpike.

If power on this line is headed east, then Cromby would be the source. If power on this line is headed west, then Richmond, Eddystone, Schuykill, Delaware, and other fossil fuel only plants would be the electrical source. Montgomery County Recycling being closest to The Cellar.

Meanwhile, if those many natural gas turbines had been built (they would have been closer to The Cellar than Limerick), then still those generators would have been major providers to the backbone where electricity is more fungible. Florida Power and Light wanted generators that could sell power more easily to the entire grid.

BTW, the market leader in free market energy is, I believe, PJM. I suspect PJM sets the standards for responsible grid management and for free market energy sales. How big is PJM monitoring? They even monitor electricity in the Chicago region and in VA's Dominion Power. PJM is also the national grid that stopped the blackout from proceding all the way to FL. Stopped it from the west and then stopped it from the north. No wonder better utilities such as Dominion Power want to join PJM.

Meanwhile, the closest source of electricity for The Cellar are fossil fuel. The grid only provides 20% of electricity from nuclear. Now maybe those numbers will increase slightly when Excelon takes over Salem and Hope Creek nuclear reactors. I don't know how unreliable those nuclear plants are, but they are considered some of the most dangerous in the US. IOW I don't know how often those plants have been producing electricity. Reports on problems in those plants have been sketchy and vague. But at least one plant has extremely serious vibration problems (that may require a major refurbishment). Maybe those plants could push the Cellar's nuclear power consumption up a few percentage points?

[Undertoad]

I see that line now, it masquerades as railroad track part of the way.

But I also see 6 high voltage lines going directly from Limerick to N. Wales?

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

But I also see 6 high voltage lines going directly from Limerick to N. Wales?

What streets? Power lines from Cromby and Limerick would have to cross somewhere in the vicinity of the Perkiomen River. Haven't been in that region so I am not sure where.

[Undertoad]

They cross the Perkiomen Creek just a nudge south of Graterford.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

They cross the Perkiomen Creek just a nudge south of Graterford.

Found those power lines on a Collegeville Quadrangle geographical map. Lines from Limerick and Cromby cross the Pekiomen together and run parallel until they cross Route 113. Then the Limerick wires cross over the Cromby wires to head west; to connect to the rest of the PJM backbone. Cromby wires continue NW to North Wales.

[Undertoad]

The satellite photos show two Cromby wires joining 6 Limerick wires and then after a while 2 wires head NE while 6 wires head SE to North Wales.

[Bullitt]

Are you two seriously arguing about power lines ?

[Happy Monkey]

The magic of the internet.

[russotto]

You're looking at the transmission lines. The substation south of Limerick also seems to have some distribution lines associated with it.

[tw]

The discussion is asking how fungible is electricity. UT has been citing satellite photographs of lines I just cannot see in these photos. For example, provided is the switching yard for Limerick. Limerick power plant in upper half. Switch yard for transmission lines in lower right:
Limerick
How many power lines enter this switch yard? Well I don't see all the power lines. But I do see structures that terminate those lines. I count at least nine lines. Four to the backbone to the east. Two from the nuclear power plant. One to Cromby. Two from the backbone from the west. Can anyone actually see all those lines? I can't even when zeroing in on switch yard at best resolution, how does one see transmission lines?
Limerick switch yard

Look closely at this picture of where two Limerick lines and one Cromby line cross the Perkiomen Creek:
Perkiomen Crossing

An uppermost line (appears as three lines) from Limerick crosses over a north/south dam. The next line down crosses over the lower edge of that same dam - line barely visible. The southern lines that appear as two wires is the Cromby line. The Cromby line passes through and connects to a substation.

This is best visibility possible. How from these crude pictures can anyone say which lines maintain which direction? One of the two Limerick transmisson lines is barely visible.

Now we refer to the topographical map of that same region. Apparently only one Limerick line (the less visible one) and one Cromby line existed back then (1983).


What I remember of N Wales is that three 230Kv lines enter. The backbone lines from Limerick are 500 Kv. One enters N Wales from the north to connect eastward; two 230 Kv lines enter from the south to connect southward and westward. Only the wire to the SW connects to Cromby - whose outgoing lines are also 230 Kv. IOW 500 Kv lines from Limerick do not connect to N Wales.

Good luck seeing both lines entering from the south. None of the three would be 500 KV lines that would be the PJM backbone and that connect from Limerick. But again, how could one tell from best detail arial photo of N Wales switch yard:
N Wales switch yard


So how fungible is electricity when Limerick Nuclear power connects mostly to backbone lines that go elsewhere. Meanwhile, Cromby, a fossil fuel plant, provides direct connections to substations on the Perkiomen Creek, in N Wales, and on substations near the Cellar along the Schuykill River. Substations around the Cellar have direct connections to Cromby via 230 Kv lines - not to Limerick via 500 Kv lines. Even though the grid is only 20% nuclear, it appears that The Cellar gets most all its electricity from a fossil fuel (oil, coal, and natural gas) plant. I don't see how UT could count lines nor say where those lines connect from satellite photos. The best photos I can find don't even show all the lines nor can tell which type of transmission lines they are. But we know from those satellite photos that only three lines terminate in N Wales - which would be one from Cromby and none from Limerick. Even the number of lines UT says are going to N Wales does not agree with satellite photos of the N Wales substation. I don't see where his claims or his numbers are justified by any ariel photos.

[Undertoad]

With Google Earth, you get a higher resolution and color! And I get that on a 1600x1200 20.1" LCD monitor....

The Limerick-to-Cromby line looks like it comes off the upper left of the Limerick plant as shot in the first image you present. They don't enter the switch yard.

Where crossing the Perk, the lines from Cromby are the bottom two. They are slightly brighter than the others.

Your final image is of a North Wales switch yard, but I was actually referring to a much, much larger switch on North Wales Road. this one You can see 9 wires entering it from the west. It sure looks like the Cromby wires lead to your small substation and the Limerick wires lead to this massive one off N. Wales Rd. The Topo maps seem to indicate the Cromby wires as a black dotted line and the Limerick as purple dotted.

Just get Google earth already, it's free.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Your final image is of a North Wales switch yard, but I was actually referring to a much, much larger switch on North Wales Road.

That larger switch yard is Whitpain - a major hub on the backbone that transmits power to Soudertown, Allentown area, and North Jersey. You should see four major transmission lines from Limerick to Whitpain. Beneath or adjacent to those transmisson lines may be a lower voltage distributon line that uses the same right of way to distribute power to local substations. Cromby has no direct connection to Whitpain.

Major hubs in the grid are obvious. For example, those traveling north of Flemington on Route 202 observe another major hub on the right as transmission lines from many directions converge on that switch yard. Electricity through these switching points would be quite fungible.

[Undertoad]

The nine lines into Whitpain are probably 6 in, 3 out, then, because three of those lines lead north roughly following the turnpike. Two head south... oh hell, here's what it looks like in Google Earth already; my notes in light blue. Sorry for everyone else still reading the thread.



The road with the red line on it is N. Wales Rd. The blue double line is the Pennsylvania turnpike.

It's kinda fun tracing these things out with Google Earth. G.E. looks a little better than the above image, which is compressed JPG for the purpose of showing here.

[tw]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The nine lines into Whitpain are probably 6 in, 3 out, then, because three of those lines lead north roughly following the turnpike.

Transmission lines are three wires; one for each phase. In the switching yard, all three conduits are equally spaced in sets of three. Those six wires from Limerick are really just two 500 Kv tansmisson lines from Limerick. The other two lines from Limerick taking a more northernly path are just above. All four transmission lines from Limerick enter in the center left. Other transmission lines exit Whitpain in the upper right to continue north and east.

I believe a lower voltage transmission line leaves center right headed north adjacent to the turnpike. Destination N Wales. That would be one of the two 230 Kv transmission lines that enter N Wales from the south.