Why California Sucks Ass!!!

[classicman]

Oh and its all the "way toooo the left"

[busterb]

OK! The land of fruits and nuts!!

[lookout123]

don't forget the far left field libertarians who are subconsciously into the blue state mentality.

[BigV]

SD: You're right. Radar's point that teh gummint does all the thinking in California is incorrect.

Your point that there is a *very* active political culture in California is also right. Many, many good things have come from California, things that started as political ideas, brought to life by laws. Not all of them were invented there, but once adopted there, they blossomed.

sm: Prop 13 was conceived and passed because there *was* a real problem with rising tax bills. I don't contest that. My point was that it was an oversimple solution that caused as many problems as it solved. It was effective. But, because it was put together by amateurs, it was poorly made.

There is a reason we have professionals of all stripes, and this is a good example of why we should have professional lawmakers.

[lookout123]

/devil's/ When I was new in the car biz and people would ask for a "senior salesperson" I would laugh with them and say I understood. Why would they want to deal with me and my amateurish, semi-transparent negotiating techniques when they could have a real professional; someone so experienced and versed in the trade they could assfuck them from three states away without the customer being any the wiser.

having a pro taking care of you is really only beneficial if you can trust them to really be on your side. how many "professional lawmakers" have you met that fit that description? /advocate/

[BigV]

Yes, you are correct. It is a matter of trust. My Dad imparted this wisdom to me, early and often, "Consider the source, son." It is so true. While we're dogging politicians, I'm reminded of the immortal words of

Originally Posted by Lazarus Long

Democracy is based on the assumption that a million men are wiser than one man. How's that again? I missed something.

Autocracy is based on the assumption that one man is wiser than a million men. Let's play that over again, too. Who decides?

You're a pro, can you do a better job at what you do than some duffer? Probably. *and* you could probably do a better job at disguising your malfeasance, hypothetically assuming you committed any. Same here. Same at the capitol. But the chances that something good will come from the efforts of an amateur (or a million amateurs) compared to a pro, for something as complex as legislation are slim.

What we share here is the unspoken disgust at unethical behavior, coming from a salesman or a legislator or whomever. That chaps my ass same as you. But it's not because they're professionals.

[BigV]

don't mean to dodge your question about how many lawmakers have I met...

Practically none. But it is *possible* to make an informed judgment of the trustworthiness of a politician based on their words and actions. But that takes much effort, and considerable application of my Dad's wise words, "Consider the source, son."

[Radar]

I'm not fundamentally wrong. Public schools are an utter failure. All schools should be private schools. Public schools teach kids to rely on the government for everything. It's these kind of people who grow up thinking if you're against government funded schools, it means you're against kids getting a decent education or you don't want an education to be available to everyone.

What it takes to make a school system succeed are good teachers who engage kids and keep their attention. It takes an environment that kids enjoy and where kids don't fear getting shot or beaten by gang members. It takes a flexible curriculum and it takes parental involvement in the process.

When government pays for any part of this, they want to control all of it. Government is like King Midas, except instead of gold, everything it touches turns to shit.

I care too much about the education of our kids to allow government to screw it up in the same way it screws everything else up.

[glatt]

Did you go to a public school, Radar?

[BigV]

Calm. Down.

Public schools are not an utter failure. There is a place for private schools, but that place is not "No public schools". Public education is a crucial part of the foundation of our national capital, our civic infrastructure. We could no more have only private schools than we could have only private roads, or only a private military. Your hyper-allergic reaction to all things governmental is causing an overreaction here.

What it takes to make a school system succeed are good teachers who engage kids and keep their attention. It takes an environment that kids enjoy and where kids don't fear getting shot or beaten by gang members. It takes a flexible curriculum and it takes parental involvement in the process.

Right! And this in no way precludes the idea of a public school system.

You don't want *your* kid to go to public school, fine. But that does not give you license to burn down the whole public education system.

[grumble]..teach kids to rely on government for everything... what a maroon[/mumble]

[Radar]

Originally Posted by BigV

Calm. Down.

Public schools are not an utter failure. There is a place for private schools, but that place is not "No public schools". Public education is a crucial part of the foundation of our national capital, our civic infrastructure. We could no more have only private schools than we could have only private roads, or only a private military. Your hyper-allergic reaction to all things governmental is causing an overreaction here.
Right! And this in no way precludes the idea of a public school system.

You don't want *your* kid to go to public school, fine. But that does not give you license to burn down the whole public education system.

[grumble]..teach kids to rely on government for everything... what a maroon[/mumble]

We could have all private roads. If we did, they'd probably be in better shape. Public schools actually are a complete failure. Government funded education is neither crucial, nor important.

If you want *YOUR* kid to go to a second rate, public school, fine. Just don't expect me to pay for it through taxes or any other way. Only those who send their kids to those schools should have to pay for them. People without kids should not be forced to pay for them, and neither should people who choose to educate their children at home, or in private schools.

It's not a matter of my right to burn down public education, it's a matter of whether or not you have the right to force others to pay to educate YOUR kids, or whether any government has such authority. Certainly the federal government has no such powers so all federal money for education should be eliminated.

Since all governments may only have the powers that the people grant to it, they may only have powers that people have without a government. If there's no government at all, you don't have a right to take what I earn to pay for the education of your kids. This means you can't grant this power to government, and neither can a million of you or a billion of you.

[BigV]

y'know... I don't expect you to pay for it. Just go away to anarchy-land, where there is no pesky government.

**until then**, I expect you to do as I do, and that is obey the laws, including those laws that require you to pay taxes that support our public schools, and our roads and our military, among other things.

I don't care if you like it or not. I don't care if you complain about it or not.

Your conversational style chafes me. I disagree with most of what you've posted in this conversation. Your "logic" is faulty. You assert and then build on those assertions. But you build on sand.

I'm not gonna argue with you since our positions on the initial conditions aren't even close. We're not close enough to learn anything from each other.

I do appreciate your civil tone, thank you.

[lookout123]

shhh. he's a constitutional scholar.

[Radar]

Originally Posted by lookout123

shhh. he's a constitutional scholar.

I am indeed, but don't limit me to only being a scholar of Constitutional law and the principles behind it. You can add other areas where I've devoted a significant amount of study like computer science, libertarian philosophy, American history, etc...

[Radar]

Originally Posted by BigV

y'know... I don't expect you to pay for it. Just go away to anarchy-land, where there is no pesky government.

**until then**, I expect you to do as I do, and that is obey the laws, including those laws that require you to pay taxes that support our public schools, and our roads and our military, among other things.

I don't care if you like it or not. I don't care if you complain about it or not.

Your conversational style chafes me. I disagree with most of what you've posted in this conversation. Your "logic" is faulty. You assert and then build on those assertions. But you build on sand.

I'm not gonna argue with you since our positions on the initial conditions aren't even close. We're not close enough to learn anything from each other.

I do appreciate your civil tone, thank you.

1. None of my logic is faulty. If you think it is, don't merely state it, prove it.

2. I state a fact (bedrock) and build upon that. You don't have the right to force me to pay to educate your kids. This means no matter how many people vote on such a law, it is illegitimate. If I refuse to comply with an illegitimate law, I'm still morally and ethically correct.

3. I think if you and a bunch of other people want to get together and pool your money for a school and you agree to pay a certain portion of your income to support such schools, that's just great. Kudos to you. Just dont' try FORCE others to contribute with illegitimate legislation.

4. I'm sorry if my civil tone chafes you. It's just my normal conversation style.