Obama: "I'm ready to negotiate with you, Iran." Iran: "Fuck you."

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

The waterboardings didn't happen at Gitmo. They happened elsewhere.

You wanted to prosecute Bush for war crimes. You have failed. Would you like to try again?

So what. We have still been in charge of prisons where torture occurred. Can you say Abu Ghraib (sp)? Bush and Cheney have both admitted in interviews that we used waterboarding. That is from the horses mouth. How can you argue with that? It doesn't matter WHERE it occurred, it matters that WE DID IT.

And are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure that's not what has been reported.

There should be an independent investigation(s) into the bush administration and things they did over the course of their 8 years in power. I think they have seriously abused their power and should be held accountable.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

And are you sure about that? Because I'm pretty sure that's not what has been reported.

Yes, I did extensive reading. There has been much confusion due to Bush Derangement Syndrome. But all of the three waterboardings happened elsewhere. They did not transport KSM to Gitmo for example.

The torture that happened at Gitmo was "B" level stuff: sleep deprivation, holding people in awkward positions, controlling the temperature of their cells, that sort of thing. We know this because of FOIA'd memos from the FBI. None of those memos reference waterboarding.

There should be an independent investigation(s) into the bush administration and things they did over the course of their 8 years in power. I think they have seriously abused their power and should be held accountable.

This thread is about that now, and has been for some time. A partisan fishing expedition would seriously hurt Obama's ability to get things done.

You think they have seriously abused their power because you have paid attention to people who have been fishing all along. They have allowed the facts to get flimsy, because they're not critical thinkers and because it's more fun that way. I know you're a victim of this, because my attempts to get you to think in a straight line have failed. When we examine just the verifiable facts, which is no fun at all, things generally fall apart.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

....This thread is about that now, and has been for some time. A partisan fishing expedition would seriously hurt Obama's ability to get things done.

You think they have seriously abused their power because you have paid attention to people who have been fishing all along. They have allowed the facts to get flimsy, because they're not critical thinkers and because it's more fun that way. I know you're a victim of this, because my attempts to get you to think in a straight line have failed. When we examine just the verifiable facts, which is no fun at all, things generally fall apart.

Undertoad...I'm curious....do you include Bruce Fein as part of that "partisan fishing expedition" or "someone who allowed facts to get flimsy" because he is not a critical thinker?

President Barack Obama promised to restore the rule of law and to prevent future wrongdoing by high-level government officials.

To honor that promise, Mr. Obama should investigate, among others, former President George W. Bush, former Vice President Dick Cheney, former Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld, former Attorney General John Ashcroft, former White House counsel and Attorney General Alberto Gonzales, and former White House political adviser Karl Rove. The crimes to be investigated should include complicity in torture, illegal surveillance, illegal detention, perjury, obstruction of justice and contempt of Congress. Prosecutions should follow if the evidence convinces a grand jury to indict. ...

FEIN: The rule of law

Fein was a deputy AG under Reagan and later wrote one of the articles of impeachment against Clinton.

He is one of numerous Constitutional lawyers from across the legal spectrum who have "examined the verifiable facts" as least as much as you or I have and believe there are serious questions of law and possible abuse of power by Bush/Cheney.

The issue of whether or not it would get in the way of "Obama's ability to get things done" is a separate question unrelated to the rule of law.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Yes, I did extensive reading. There has been much confusion due to Bush Derangement Syndrome. But all of the three waterboardings happened elsewhere. They did not transport KSM to Gitmo for example.

The torture that happened at Gitmo was "B" level stuff: sleep deprivation, holding people in awkward positions, controlling the temperature of their cells, that sort of thing. We know this because of FOIA'd memos from the FBI. None of those memos reference waterboarding.

And all of that stuff is also considered torture.

This thread is about that now, and has been for some time. A partisan fishing expedition would seriously hurt Obama's ability to get things done.

You think they have seriously abused their power because you have paid attention to people who have been fishing all along. They have allowed the facts to get flimsy, because they're not critical thinkers and because it's more fun that way. I know you're a victim of this, because my attempts to get you to think in a straight line have failed. When we examine just the verifiable facts, which is no fun at all, things generally fall apart.

Excuse me? You KNOW I'm a victim because I haven't followed YOUR LOGIC? Are you kidding me? I would hardly say John Dean is not a critical thinker, nor many of the other people who have written books about Bush (Richard Clarke, Paul O'Neill, Kevin Phillips, etc.), or spoken out against him, many of them fellow republicans.

Why do you defend him so much? I believe he was a terrible president, and I believe he broke laws in order to serve himself. I just hope he is one day held accountable for what he's done.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

Why do you defend him so much? I believe he was a terrible president, and I believe he broke laws in order to serve himself. I just hope he is one day held accountable for what he's done.

One day I woke up to find that nearly everybody decides what they believe by picking a side or a group or a clique and sticking to it relentlessly. In this view of the world, sides are "defended", where each side trots out its narrative of the world and we are urged to pick one size to fit all.

I don't care about any of that nonsense, I just try to figure out the truth. I'm as scientific as I can be, trying to recall and research actual facts and real, direct information, and trying to understand context as much as is possible for any one simpleton like myself. I find picking sides means you are dragged away from truth as you consume your favorite version of reality.

FWIW I didn't vote for Bush and for the last two elections I have voted straight D.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

One day I woke up to find that nearly everybody decides what they believe by picking a side or a group or a clique and sticking to it relentlessly. In this view of the world, sides are "defended", where each side trots out its narrative of the world and we are urged to pick one size to fit all.

I don't care about any of that nonsense, I just try to figure out the truth. I'm as scientific as I can be, trying to recall and research actual facts and real, direct information, and trying to understand context as much as is possible for any one simpleton like myself. I find picking sides means you are dragged away from truth as you consume your favorite version of reality.

FWIW I didn't vote for Bush and for the last two elections I have voted straight D.

OK. Thanks for clarifying that. But since so many serious allegations have surfaced over the past 6 years, don't you think we should investigate and find out what the truth really is? and IF any laws have been broken, do you not think people should be held accountable and tried for their crimes? (notice I did say IF they were guilty...)

and ftr, I almost always vote independent. I HATE the 2 party system.

[Undertoad]

Originally Posted by sugarpop

OK. Thanks for clarifying that. But since so many serious allegations have surfaced over the past 6 years, don't you think we should investigate and find out what the truth really is? and IF any laws have been broken, do you not think people should be held accountable and tried for their crimes?

As soon as the Vince Foster case is closed, and we know for certain that Bill Clinton wasn't running cocaine deals as Governor, and that Obama is a US citizen legal to be President, sure.

Allegations are easy -- just throw shit until it sticks. People love throwing shit -- people love to be in the game, getting attention, running plays for their side and feeling important. You got an unpopular Pres, more shit will be thrown and more will stick. Pretty soon you believe a lot of shit, and are calling for a Whitewater investigation, and when you don't find any real shit, you turn to prosecuting blowjobs.

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Allegations are easy -- just throw shit until it sticks. People love throwing shit -- people love to be in the game, getting attention, running plays for their side and feeling important. You got an unpopular Pres, more shit will be thrown and more will stick. Pretty soon you believe a lot of shit, and are calling for a Whitewater investigation, and when you don't find any real shit, you turn to prosecuting blowjobs.

I'm not sure how a DoJ internal investigation of the Bush DoJ questionable "torture" memos by the Bush DoJ is "throwing shit" rather than the DoJ OPR and IG carrying out their legislatively mandated responsibilities.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Undertoad

As soon as the Vince Foster case is closed, and we know for certain that Bill Clinton wasn't running cocaine deals as Governor, and that Obama is a US citizen legal to be President, sure.

Allegations are easy -- just throw shit until it sticks. People love throwing shit -- people love to be in the game, getting attention, running plays for their side and feeling important. You got an unpopular Pres, more shit will be thrown and more will stick. Pretty soon you believe a lot of shit, and are calling for a Whitewater investigation, and when you don't find any real shit, you turn to prosecuting blowjobs.

OK, so we should forget everything everyone has said, and go about our merry business, because the republicans mishandled an investigation and kept it going for years, when it should have been dropped? I'm sick of the corruption in Washington, and I want something done about it. I'm sorry to hear you don't. I don't like powerful (or rich) people getting away with stuff simply because they are powerful (or rich). That is not what our system of government is supposed to be about.