Why (some) GM products suck

[Shawnee123]

What do you guys think about Saturn?

My brother tells me that at Saturn, the price is the price. They don't try to haggle and pull one over on you (which is what happened with the dude from the Honda dealership, at which point I figured there are other cars so if you treat me like I'm an idiot you've lost a sale. I may be a bit naive about the car buying process but I'm not stupid. Boy he made me mad.)

I looked around and I like the Astra.

Anyone with opinions on these cars?

[glatt]

Saturns aren't as good as Hondas, IMHO, but they are OK. When I was shopping for our current car, I looked at the Saturns, and Consumer Reports didn't like them very much.

[glatt]

Let me add to that that I quickly looked at the Astra, and it looks like it's a re-badged Opel, perhaps not actually built by Saturn. Which could be a good thing.

Quickly looking around, I couldn't see if it was built in Germany or the US.

[glatt]

Popular Mechanics raves about it.
"the Astra is quite easily the best small car to ever wear the Saturn badge."

It sounds pretty nice.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

"the Astra is quite easily the best small car to ever wear the Saturn badge."

And then the same article says

The power rack-and-pinion steering is quick and precise, driven by a hydraulic pump that, in turn, is driven by an electric motor to reduce the drain on engine power.

Where does that 'expert' think the electric power comes from? Obviously draining from the same engine power. Meanwhile, better cars have long used speed sensitive steering. That means it does not need to draw power when the vehicle is moving. Only when stopped or moving less than 5 MPH. Why is steering draining engine power? Either because it does not have the now 'all but required' speed sensitive steering, OR that author does not know much about cars.

The devil is in the details.

Author got one point right. Its engine is not the crappy shit that is routine in most all GM products.

Author also forgot to mention who may end up with Opel (and therefore Saturn). Fiat.

[glatt]

So to sum up your post, the Astra isn't on the list of recommended cars because it is too new. Previous Saturns were crap and didn't make it on the list. But this Saturn which is probably made in Germany by Opel was not considered for the list. Why even mention the list if the Astra wasn't considered? It's not relevant or helpful.

The steering is not relevant either. The article talks about how the power steering is provided, not the speed at which it is engaged. The reviewer liked the feel of the steering. One can assume that it is the speed sensitive steering when the article uses words like "quick and precise."

I'm surprise you aren't shouting from the rooftops how awesome this car is because it meets your long held 70hp/liter standard.

[glatt]

Shawnee, it's hard for me to give advice. All I can do is say what I would do in a situation. I would buy a used car if I couldn't afford to pay cash for a new one, but I know a lot of people who would disagree with me.

I'd go for a hatchback made by Honda or Toyota (or their subsidiary Scion.) I would haggle with a private owner based on research I would do to learn blue book values etc. I recognize that you hate haggling, so you should check out what Carmax has to offer. I personally think Carmax prices are too high, but they do clean the cars up really well, and offer warranties and a fixed price. The used cars at Carmax seem like new cars, they are so nice.

But first, I'd go to the bookstore and get the Consumer Reports used car buying guide and read the front sections in their entirety and then the specific sections about hatchbacks.

[tw]

Originally Posted by glatt

But this Saturn which is probably made in Germany by Opel was not considered for the list. Why even mention the list if the Astra wasn't considered? ...

The steering is not relevant either.

The list says everything about Saturns - and Astra. Only reason for quality or perverted products: 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. When did Saturn get all management replaced four and more years ago?

Saturn is probably made in America even if the engine is an Opel design. For example, Ford's early 1970 Capri was one of the best driving cars. The American version of that car with the same engine was called Pinto. Even the same engine (2.3 liter with same Holley 5210C) performed completely different. "Opel" means, "It has potential." Nothing more.

That driver/reviewer likes steering that is not speed sensitive? Says a lot about the reviewer's integrity. Many also loved how Oldsmobiles and Pontiacs handled - even though those cars wandered all over the road. If its not speed sensitive (a mid-1980 technology), then does he really does not know how it handles. So where does he discuss a car that does handle good - such as the Ford Focus? Does he know anything about the product - or just hype "More Power".

Speed sensitive means the steering wheel (and driver) is engaged with the road - information that can even save your life (and other advantages).

70 Hp per liter is a requirement for all cars. You have assumed binary logic in a world that is ternary. If the car has a 70 Hp per liter engine and no brakes, is it still acceptable? 70 Hp per liter does not say it is good. But a car without 70 Hp per liter is bad - better sent from the factory to the junk yard.

Most GM products do not have a 70 Hp per liter engine. 70 Hp per liter says the Astra is at least one step above shit.

Don't waste time with Saturn only because someone feels it is good and then recommends it. Saturn has a poor reputation when we ignore popular myths and deal only with facts. Saturn had to concede and sell out to GM a decade ago just to survive. All those lists only confirm that reality.

Good reasons why companies such as Honda and Toyota have 70 Hp per liter engines in all cars for well over a decade. And why their dealers don't get screwed for warranty work. And why the service bulletins for those cars are so few. 85% of all problems are directly traceable to top management. That Astra is a product of Rick Wagoner.

Why did GM do a campaign to bankrupt the LA Times? LA Times did a story that actually told the truth about GM products in April 2005. GM cannot let you know the truth. Did something change in only 3 years? Why is GM again screwing dealers with warranty costs? Too many product failures. Don't even waste time with Saturn.

Listed by others and me are numerous responsible manufacturers. Those many lists say it best. Reliable brands include Scion, Acura, Honda, Toyota, Lexus, Infinity, Subaru, Hyundai, Kia, Lincoln, Mazda, etc. Even Ford (because Jacque Nasser was removed only recently - 8 years ago) has move back up to average reliability.

Even the Ford Focus is a superior consideration. It was never about foreign verses domestic products. It was always about who designed and built the car - bean counters or car guys. Free market principles prevail.

[sugarpop]

Originally Posted by Shawnee123

What do you guys think about Saturn?

My brother tells me that at Saturn, the price is the price. They don't try to haggle and pull one over on you (which is what happened with the dude from the Honda dealership, at which point I figured there are other cars so if you treat me like I'm an idiot you've lost a sale. I may be a bit naive about the car buying process but I'm not stupid. Boy he made me mad.)

I looked around and I like the Astra.

Anyone with opinions on these cars?

My sister has a Saturn and she loves it. And the people at the dealership are great. For the first 3 years she got free car washes and oil changes.