The Philosophy of a True Conservative, Today

[Adak]

Basic things to understand:

1) The more control the gov't has, the less freedom you have.

2) Politicians, are just as greedy as the rest of us (at least).

3) There is a simple knee-jerk reaction to every problem -

"There Oughta be a Law"

that we have. If we don't resist that, we wind up in a mess of laws, coercion by the gov't everywhere you turn, and a huge loss of our freedoms.

4) Major social programs initiated by law, have achieved a great deal of negative effects. Our goal should be VOLUNTARY social programs, as much as possible, instead of forced Stateism control of social programs.

Let Mr. Friedman describe it. The video is quite old, but the logic is brilliant.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfdRpyfEmBE

Note how the meaning of liberal and conservative have changed over the ensuing years. Liberals today are joined at the hip with Statists, who want the state involved in every part of our lives. (Milton refers to that as Collectivisim). I will call it Stateism. Stateism may take the form of Socialism, Communism, or others, but those words refer to a particular type of tightly regulated State control. Stateism is the parent and broader term I use for it.

[JBKlyde]

That's a little too black and white for me... Today is the age of dynamic color and black is the combination of all colors.. white is no color and God sent the rainbow to promise he will never flood the earth again... when Jesus returns it's gonna be like the days of Noah.. everybody is eating and drinking and thinks he's not comming and tada here he is.. so tell me this what is the color of a saved soul... black or white?? White Washed tombs are are like dust and bones.
In the baptist church they teach a saved soul is white as snow.. I want that new bible that ctn has been advertising.. it's like 200dollars and it's "color coordinated".. if you really want to be my friend get me that bible for Christmas...

[Adak]

In a conservative society, there will be jobs, but who is the right person for the job?

Imagine you have to hire two singing acts, for two conventions. One for a church, and one for Mary Kay. The applications and their sample songs are all around you on the desk.

Two samples:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=McBOI...eature=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-iOymDxKPs

Who are you going to hire for the church convention?

and the Mary Kay one?

The answer is both simple and obvious - you hire the person who can do the best job. I don't care if Matt Cardle is from Antartica, and he's really got antennae on the back of his head - he's hired for the Mary Kay convention .

Race, religion, etc., are not something a True Conservative cares about. You hire the best person for the job, period.

Another moment with Milton:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rQLBi...feature=fvwrel

[Adak]

Does power corrupt? Are our politicians acting in our best interests?

Keep the Pink liquid* close to hand for this one:
http://democraticvision.gather.com/v...81474981462547

*Pepto Bismol

A true Conservative doesn't want the farm subsidies changed, he wants farm subsidies STOPPED.

OMG, we're still subsidizing tobacco and corn?

[Big Sarge]

I agree with your points. I believe in these points. The problem we have is that it can't be just black and white; we have to have some shades of gray

[DanaC]

That makes sense, until you start breaking it down a little.

First off, I very much doubt many employers would sit down and think: yes, I know that black man (or that woman, or that differently abled person etc etc) is better qualified, better able and better suited to this post, but I just don't like the cut of his jib, so I'll hire this guy instead: unsuited, less able, but look at that white skin and pale blue eyes.

Discrimination doesn't occur in spite of an awareness of the other person's fine qualities. It occurs because prejudice blinds to those qualities. A man with a low opinion of women doesn't look at the female candidate he's just interviewed and think: yes, you're perfect for the job, and have all the qualities I'm looking for, but I just don't want to employ a woman. He looks at her and sees someone unsuited, regardless of her actual qualities. He looks at her and sees his own image of woman plastered across her and that's what he is discriminating against.

A true conservative makes their decision irrespective of race, gender or creed, but based on who is best suited. Who is the right person for the job. That is in no way contradicted by the fact that for some people, a black man, or a married woman is inherently unsuitable. They may not recognise that as a part of their thinking, and are therefore not consciously taking race, gender, or creed into consideration.

Second, that isn't a 'conservative' stance, it's just common sense. It holds true for any sensible person wherever they are on the political spectrum.

[Adak]

@DanaC: good discussion, thanks for posting. You're correct that a lot of these ideas, are not new, or unique to Conservatism. Good ideas are frequently shared ideas.

[jimhelm]

Originally Posted by DanaC

That makes sense, until you start breaking it down a little.

First off, I very much doubt many employers would sit down and think: yes, I know that black man (or that woman, or that differently abled person etc etc) is better qualified, better able and better suited to this post, but I just don't like the cut of his jib, so I'll hire this guy instead: unsuited, less able, but look at that white skin and pale blue eyes.

Discrimination doesn't occur in spite of an awareness of the other person's fine qualities. It occurs because prejudice blinds to those qualities. A man with a low opinion of women doesn't look at the female candidate he's just interviewed and think: yes, you're perfect for the job, and have all the qualities I'm looking for, but I just don't want to employ a woman. He looks at her and sees someone unsuited, regardless of her actual qualities. He looks at her and sees his own image of woman plastered across her and that's what he is discriminating against.

A true conservative makes their decision irrespective of race, gender or creed, but based on who is best suited. Who is the right person for the job. That is in no way contradicted by the fact that for some people, a black man, or a married woman is inherently unsuitable. They may not recognise that as a part of their thinking, and are therefore not consciously taking race, gender, or creed into consideration.

Second, that isn't a 'conservative' stance, it's just common sense. It holds true for any sensible person wherever they are on the political spectrum.

we don't see people how they are. we see them how WE are.
-some guy from one of jinx's sig lines.

[piercehawkeye45]

Originally Posted by Adak

Basic things to understand:

1) The more control the gov't has, the less freedom you have.

Freedom is impossible to maximize...

[JBKlyde]

what's black and white and red all over: the news paper... da dat dat cshst

[Juniper]

Not sure that's Conservatism, necessarily -- more Libertarianism.

I wouldn't say that most Conservatives want to get rid of all government control. They just want people to have a wee bit more personal choice and personal responsibility than the other side wishes. The whole "teach a man to fish" vs. "give him a fish" parable.

At least that's my understanding. Disclaimer: I suck at politics, it ain't my thing.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Adak

1) The more control the gov't has, the less freedom you have.

Not generically true. Power accumulates with or without government.

Somalis do not have more freedom than Americans.

[Stormieweather]

Originally Posted by Adak

1) The more control the gov't has, the less freedom you have.

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Not generically true. Power accumulates with or without government.

Somalis do not have more freedom than Americans.

No Adak. Freedom isn't JUST about being free from government interference.

Freedom also means the freedom to be in control of one's body, it means freedom to eat food and breathe air that isn't contaminated or unsafe, freedom is having teachers to educate our children and firemen to put out fires and policemen to help protect us. Freedom is the ability to choose our rulers and vote on laws. It's being able to worship (or not) as you choose, to marry who you love, and having recourse against chicanery. Freedom is a certain level of trust and minimal fear during the course of your daily life.

Try being a second class individual in a country without these sorts of freedoms...then maybe you'll appreciate the freedom that government gives us.

And yes, I have.

[Adak]

Originally Posted by Stormieweather

No Adak. Freedom isn't JUST about being free from government interference.
. . . .
Try being a second class individual in a country without these sorts of freedoms...then maybe you'll appreciate the freedom that government gives us. . . .

@Stormieweather & Happy Monkey:
This is a political philosophy discussion. It's about the interaction of a stable gov't, with the people in it.

It can't begin to cover a situation like they have in Somalia, or emergency responders, etc.

@Juniper, yes. My idea of Conservatism (True Conservatism), is to go back to the gov't described in the Constitution - not all this current gov't, with an agency for everything under the sun.

Libertarians and I agree on this: gov't has become FAR too intrusive, in our daily lives, and we've become FAR too used to having it that way.

[Happy Monkey]

Originally Posted by Adak

@Stormieweather & Happy Monkey:
This is a political philosophy discussion. It's about the interaction of a stable gov't, with the people in it.

It can't begin to cover a situation like they have in Somalia, or emergency responders, etc.

So less government control = more freedom, unless we're talking about the things government does that you approve of?