Beware of Toddler

[LabRat]

I was just looking for some "this worked for me" type advice form anyone who has been thru the biting stage with a toddler. My main concern is that my daughter (22 mo) is occasionally biting her daycare pals during tussles over toys, and I don't want this to get out of control so that we are asked to leave the center (I LOVE it). Muzzles don't come in 2T. When she bites me at home, usually when she is tired, i hold her chin and look her in the eyes firmly saying "Katie, no biting, it hurts me. You need to ...say please (or whatever). Please kiss mommie's owie." She usually looks genuinely sad that she hurt me, and it only happens once a night, 2-3 times a week for the last 3 weeks. When I drop her off in the mornings, i look her in the eyes and tell her she needs to be gentle to her friends, so no biting, OK? If she does bite that day, she doesn't get her sucker that everyone gets when their parents come. (and i tell her you bit so-and-so today, so no sucker) Of course she , but i think she gets why. Wednesday she didn't bite, so all the way home in the car i would say "did katie bite today? NO!! and we both would holler YEAH!! and clap our hands." She got a brownie after dinner from dad when he asked her if she bit anyone and she said no. no biting yesterday either, but we didn't make such a big deal out of it, just told her we were proud of her and gave her big hugs. we'll see how today goes. Thanks in advance for the advice.

[perth]

I think (as Steve pointed out in the earlier iteration of this thread) consistency is key. My son went through a brief biting stage, and when he did it I used my best angry daddy voice and told him "James, no biting ever! 5 minutes on your bottom.", which was indeed followed by him sitting on his butt with no toys, no juice, no fun, for 5 minutes. This tactic was also used by his mom and babysitter, and now it's not a problem. Well, mostly.

On rare occasion he does still bite me, mostly when we're pretending to be puppies (Yeah, we. I'm a dad, it's my job). And he realises immediately upon doing it that it was the wrong thing to do. Punishment still follows, but the important thing is that I know he knows it's wrong, so I don't worry too much about it.

[LabRat]

Unfortunately I didn't get to see any replies to my earlier try at this topic before the crash, and then it was toasted, so thanks for reposting. I like the 5 min on your bottom bit. When it is appropriate, I'll have to remember that. It will work no matter where we're at, unlike a timeout chair or something. Right now when she gets out of control, I just make her sit on my lap until she calms down, she's a bit young to handle staying in one place by herself for 5 min.

[glatt]

You missed my reply then. Our 28 months old son will also occasionally bite.

We noticed that it almost always happens as he get tired. Usually just before nap time or just before bed time. If he's had a long, difficult day, then he's more likely to bite that evening. Quite often we can step in and diffuse a situation before he actually bites someone. That's the key for us. Prevention is much easier than reacting after the fact.

When he does bite, we sternly tell him that there's no biting, and biting is wrong because it hurts. Then we'll try to get him out of the situation that caused him to bite, either with a very short time out, or simple distraction.

Mostly we try to comfort the victim using a lot of exaggerated sympathy for them. This hopefully lets him empathize a little more with the vicitim and realize it's painful. It also takes the attention away from him, so he isn't "rewarded" with attention for behaving a way we don't like.

All this is actually working. He isn't biting as much, and he knows it's wrong.

I also think you should talk to the daycare providers. They have certainly experienced this before, and should have helpful suggestions. Also, since you really need to deal with the behavior immediately, a lot of this falls on them anyway. It's hard for a two year old to see a connection between events (biting and your response) when they are separated by several hours of time.

Good luck. One way or another, your child will give up biting. (Unless he's named Mike Tyson.)

[perth]

How old is she? Case can probably confirm this, but I think we instituted the "5 minute" policy shortly before he turned 2. Of course, he had to learn what it meant, but it's proven to be very effective.

Personally, I think there's *always* a better way than spanking to discipline a child. And definitely in Jamey's case, spanking is going to do more harm (psychological) than good. Time-out is extraordinarily effective with Jamey, because he's such an extrovert that he simply cannot stand being left out. And there's room for leeway with it. If he gets right up and does it again, I can easily give him another 5 or even 10 if I feel like he needs it. The one thing I never do is send him to bed as punishment. We worked really hard to make bedtime a positive thing with him and it would be a mistake to turn that into a punishment.

[SteveDallas]

LabRat what I said was we never had this problem, but I'd suggest talking to the daycare. Whatever approach you take needs to be consistent between home & daycare. And they may have suggestions--they've probably seen it before.

[kerosene]

The other thing I have realized with Jamey is that it works well to encourage him to talk about what he is feeling. If he is "upset", "angry" or "sad", instead of hitting or biting, perth and I both try and encourage him to tell us. (ie: "Are you upset?" "Why are you sad, Jamey?") I noticed that recently, he will react by telling me "Mommy, I am upset!" This is not to say he doesn't throw his regular 3-year-old temper tantrums, but helping him find a different way of expressing his feelings really helps. Hitting was a big problem with him for a little while, which was one reason we didn't want to spank him. We managed to break that, and sometimes he makes a little hitting motion when he's upset, but never makes contact with anyone. Different discipline styles work for different kids. For him, it is the lack of attention and fun that keeps him from misbehaving. As others have mentioned in this thread, it's consistency and promptness that really are the key. If the kid is confused about punishment, he isn't going to learn, but if he understands very clearly, why he is in trouble, he will learn more quickly. When I send Jamey to time-out (on his bottom) I usually ask him to tell me why he was in trouble before I will let him up, so he remembers not to do it again.

[Kitsune]

James, no biting ever! 5 minutes on your bottom.

Curious -- why not "5 times [spanking] on your bottom"? I've noticed a really disturbing trend, lately, in which children get away with pretty much anything they want to in public and are simply, repeatedly told, "Sweetie, don't do that. Honey, that's not nice. Pumpkin, please don't do that, it hurts people's feelings," all while the behavior continues.

The physical intervention never happens, so the child continues the misbehavior. I have no children, so I can't offer any words of advice one way or another and maybe I'm only seeing the incidents in public where it is so annoying that I wish someone would finally take a hand to the brat. But I'm curious: does the absence of physical punishment make the child's behavior better or worse? Do children really learn to correct their behavior simply by being told? I've seen cases where the parents continue to use "baby speak" or "sweet talk" when attempting to discipline their children and I cannot ever see that working as a corrective action because the child will never see the parent as an adult or authority figure.

[Troubleshooter]

Lowe's makes an extra-duty paint stirrer that sees a small amount of alternative use.

Little Sidhe has a bit of a spiteful streak that comes out every now and then. She generally listens when I tell her not to do something as long as I use the right tone of voice. The paint stirrer *might* get used once in a month. I've found that by using it as infrequently as I do she knows exactly why I am reaching for it and curbs her current unacceptable behavior.

[perth]

2 nice things about 5 minute time-outs:

1. It can be (and has been) done in a grocery store. You can do this just about anywhere.
2. I don't get approached by some childless busybody irate because I was hitting my child.

Again, consistency is key. If I have to give him a timeout in the middle of a restaurant, I will (though he does tend to cry and fuss, so out of consideration for other patrons, I take him outside or something to keep him from bothering them). So yeah, if you're consistent with punishment, it often gets to the point where the threat of punishment is enough, as in "James, keep it up and you're getting 5 minutes.". This is sometimes enough to put him back in line, which is really convenient in public situations. If not, well, he gets the 5 minutes.

How do I know this works? Last weekend I flew with him to Tucson and back. Both trips I was approached by total strangers wanting to tell me I had a very well-behaved kid. I *really* like that.

[perth]

Originally Posted by Troubleshooter

...the right tone of voice.

Man, that's most of the process isn't it? It almost doesn't matter what I say as long as he hears it in the "vengeful god" voice.

[Troubleshooter]

Originally Posted by perth

Man, that's most of the process isn't it? It almost doesn't matter what I say as long as he hears it in the "vengeful god" voice.

Which do you think will work better:

1) Dear Heart, that oven is very hot and will burn you...

2) NO! Followed by #1

[kerosene]

Originally Posted by Kitsune

James, no biting ever! 5 minutes on your bottom.

Curious -- why not "5 times [spanking] on your bottom"? I've noticed a really disturbing trend, lately, in which children get away with pretty much anything they want to in public and are simply, repeatedly told, "Sweetie, don't do that. Honey, that's not nice. Pumpkin, please don't do that, it hurts people's feelings," all while the behavior continues.

The physical intervention never happens, so the child continues the misbehavior. I have no children, so I can't offer any words of advice one way or another and maybe I'm only seeing the incidents in public where it is so annoying that I wish someone would finally take a hand to the brat. But I'm curious: does the absence of physical punishment make the child's behavior better or worse? Do children really learn to correct their behavior simply by being told? I've seen cases where the parents continue to use "baby speak" or "sweet talk" when attempting to discipline their children and I cannot ever see that working as a corrective action because the child will never see the parent as an adult or authority figure.

What I find disturbing are attitudes like "If you don't hit your kid, he's going to be a problem." Child discipline isn't as simple as either spanking or telling the kid. It's more about how you tell the kid, what happens if he continues after being told and his learning WHY the action was wrong. If you spank for everything the kid does wrong, he isn't going to learn WHY he shouldn't hit. He's just going to learn that if he hits, someone bigger is going to hit him. He won't hit anyone (unless Mom and Dad don't see it) but this is not the mindset I choose to encourage with my son. Make no mistake, there is no "baby speak" involved when Jamey is in trouble. Perth uses the vengeful god voice and I use the "Mom, is seriously upset with you right now" voice. And he listens.

When you don't spank consistently, you see problems with the kid's behavior, regardless, just like if I were to threaten time out to Jamey and never follow through, I would be setting a bad precedent. Parents that have the screaming kid through the store that don't seem to be effectively punishing the child, simply don't know what to do. Yes, my kid has misbehaved in public, but I don't sit there and continue to try and calm him down, nor do I whoop him with my hand. I take him aside and get really serious and tell him he had better stop or we are leaving and he won't get to watch Star Wars when we get home/play with his lightsaber/eat his leftover cookie/whatever, he will be sitting on his bottom. If he continues, I follow through. No matter what. I never make threats I am not willing to follow through on. I see parents do this (with spankings, time-outs, etc.) and that is where the discipline fails. Not in its form, but in it's consistency (or lack thereof). Children need some kind of structure in their lives...it makes me think of those parents who think the child can "decide" when he is ready to go to bed, etc. That's just not how it works. A 3 year old doesn't know what he needs. And when he is throwing a fit, spanking him to make him stop, purely for the benefit of the parent or nearby customers is not wise, IMHO. It teaches the child to obey authority no matter what the reasons are behind disapproval. I don't know about you guys, but I want my kid to have the ability to think for himself when he becomes an adult. Even if he does get smarter than Mom (which I am sure he will).

As for the people that are irritated with my child's misbehavior and find it in their place to judge my methods of discipline, they just have to deal. In my experience, it is usually those who don't have these experience who are quickest to make the judgement, because people who have children have either been through it or are going through it. No matter what method you use, childrearing isn't easy. But it is easy for someone to say "you oughtta whoop that kid's butt" if you have never had the experience of punishing your own child.

BTW, I am not saying that a spanking is absolutely wrong in all cases. Based on my situation and my kid, it just isn't the most effective for us, and certainly isn't worth it for either Jamey or me.

[garnet]

Originally Posted by case

As for the people that are irritated with my child's misbehavior and find it in their place to judge my methods of discipline, they just have to deal.

While it sounds like you're doing all the right things, I have to disagree with the statement above. I'm childless by choice--and gloriously happy about it. I don't think anyone else should have to suffer because of some kid's bad behavior, whether or not the parent has control of the situation. I've seen meals and a few weddings ruined by screaming children. I'm not saying it's the kid's or the parent's fault--afterall, kids will be kids. I just don't think you should subject other people to it unless there's absolutely no other way around it. Having kids is a choice in every sense of the word. If your choice is to have kids, great--but don't make others "deal" with your choice.

[Cyber Wolf]

Generally, I let parents be parents and I often find it doesn't help to give a parent a suggestion on how to handle their children, especially if it's a tense social setting (Jr's pitching a fit in public for reasons unknown and parent(s) is upset and embarrassed by the event, etc...) I am childless and have no current plans on having kids but that doesn't automatically disqualify me from knowing what various punishments can do to kids. I say that because I vividly remember my parents' punishment methods, what I did in (most) cases to deserve it and what I've learned as a result. My parents were of the Spanking Club, 'Belt, Switch and Hand' chapter. Looking back, I've realized that getting spanked for something not only told me that whatever I was getting spanked for was undesirable but it also taught me that doing said undesirable thing needed to be done with more tact (no, I had no idea what tact meant at that age, but that's what it was.)

One example: I REALLY hated peas as a kid. Refusing to eat peas was not a good thing, but hiding the peas in a papertowel behind furniture (where they were usually forgotten about until they developed a personality) was Undesirable. So I was punished for and stopped doing that, but came up with a better way to dispose of unwanted peas. I got really good at hiding food in my cheeks without it showing on the outside or showing when I spoke, practicing with M&Ms, peanuts, etc. So...dinner's over, run outside to play, dispose of peas behind the shrubs. Parents never knew, I was never punished for it. And all I knew at the time was I found a way to continue defeating The Peas without getting The Stick. In this case, spanking taught me to better hide the evidence