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Old 01-15-2018, 04:15 PM   #76
lumberjim
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Grace says her friends helped her grapple with the aftermath of her night with Ansari. “It took a really long time for me to validate this as sexual assault,” she told us. “I was debating if this was an awkward sexual experience or sexual assault. And that’s why I confronted so many of my friends and listened to what they had to say, because I wanted validation that it was actually bad.”
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Old 01-15-2018, 04:59 PM   #77
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Originally Posted by BigV View Post
Cite.

Show me where the woman say she was assaulted.
Did you read UT's link or just climb or you high horse and charge the windmill?
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:22 PM   #78
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The New York Times has now weighed in, with an opinion piece entitled "Aziz Ansari Is Guilty. Of Not Being a Mind Reader."

Their writer used about the same level of overstatement as I did...

Quote:
...arguably the worst thing that has happened to the #MeToo movement since it began in October. It transforms what ought to be a movement for women’s empowerment into an emblem for female helplessness.
That's pretty rough. But a feminist wrote it, not me, so.
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Old 01-15-2018, 10:53 PM   #79
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Oh yes, Barii Weiss, gets it!
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Old 01-16-2018, 06:52 AM   #80
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So now it's no longer the #MeToo movement; but, the #MeToo bandwagon.

Or perhaps it's #MeTooMaybe

#Me2BORNOT2B

#MeTooButNotYou

#MeTooLimited

Or maybe simply $MeToo.
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Old 01-16-2018, 08:46 AM   #81
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$$Cash tag?
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Old 01-16-2018, 09:17 AM   #82
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This is so depressing.

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Grace’s story was met with so many digital hosannas by young feminists, who insisted that consent is only consent if it is affirmative, active, continuous and — and this is the word most used — enthusiastic. Consent isn’t the only thing they are radically redefining. A recent survey by The Economist/YouGov found that approximately 25 percent of millennial-age American women think asking someone for a drink is harassment. More than a third say that if a man compliments a woman’s looks it is harassment.
I can see where this is going. Millennial men stop asking women for drinks, they stop having actual experiences with women that they can learn from and grow from, so they get all their experience from watching pornos. They learn all the wrong lessons about sex from that porn, and it makes matters only worse. It's a negative feedback loop.
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Old 01-16-2018, 02:15 PM   #83
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It was inevitable; all pendulums swing too far and then correct. I, for one, am glad to see that this one is correcting quickly, by women, and--it seems, though time will tell--gently, without a backlash against all the legitimate cases of harassment and assault.
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Old 01-16-2018, 02:58 PM   #84
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What if the IRL gist of the 'movement' being publicized as having monolithic, prescriptive goals, is really just a simple idea, like, "please treat women with more respect"?

What if people are just saying: we should call attention to instances of women being disrespected, to raise awareness of how it happens, how it makes us feel, and H O P E F U L L Y to trigger an empathetic reaction, where people conclude "hey, we shouldn't do that"?

Wouldn't the Aziz Ansari story be a worthwhile example of disrespectful behavior? As a society, should we have 'more' or 'less' men behaving like that? Should we just 'not talk' about it?

My internal sense of ethical responsibility tells me, after reading the Aziz Ansari article, that this was really wrong and really disgusting, and honestly probably happens that way all the time, and, I wonder, does "technically illegal" constitute the only bar we require people to meet?

Gross, society. Do better.
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Old 01-16-2018, 03:52 PM   #85
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well, the argument made by the NYT Opinion writer is that it is anti-feminist to say that women need that level of protection from awkward sexuality

and that a strong, empowered woman is what feminism should be shooting for, and that a strong woman can leave a situation that is uncomfortable, but not coercive, and feel 100% fine having done so

and if it happened would have no interest in trashing a person's entire career out of such an event

because that is also gross, insensitive behavior
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Old 01-16-2018, 04:54 PM   #86
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It was a bad, aggressive date with a woman who at first appeared to be into things and then had second thoughts. Now Ansari's career will be affected if not ruined -- or the entire movement will experience its backlash. Which one?
If her description of the encounter is accurate that is way more than just an aggressive date - and a heck of a lot more than someone clumsily missing signals. He seems to have acted in a predatory manner with her - very manipulative behaviour.

her description of trying to physically move away from him across the room and him intercepting her - of her trying to give off non-verbal cues, because that is a very difficult situation to be in and knowing how to react in the moment is tricky - the potential threat of that situation because she doesn't know how far he is going to push this, but set against the other thought likely to occur at that moment, of 'am I over playing this, is this really a potential threat? Is this ok?' that sort of stuff puts you into a really strange head space where you can find yourself doing very strange and uncomfortable things because you don't want to offend that person - and where you don't want to act weird or because you just don't know what else to do - it's like a kind of freeze compliance - hard to explain.

Some men - and I know more than one - play on that. They specifically aimto get women into that headspace and then capitalise on it by, for example, demanding that the woman touch their cock, or take off their top - and the woman, often, finds themselves doing exactly what they've been told to do- without enthusiasm maybe, but somehow just doing it.

I've been on the other end of that little game - but it was a few years after before I really realised what that was and what it meant.

She doesn't sound like someone who was into it and then changed her mind. She went on a date with a guy who pushed her past where she was comfortable being and ignored every non-verbal and verbal cue that she was not up for that kind of date just now.

He applied and then withdrew pressure then applied again, breaking down her resistance - and attempting to push her into doing something he must have known she did not want.

As the article points out, this is not some clumsy teenager, this is a man in his mid 30s who has built a comedy and writing career out of understanding romantic communication between men and women.

Unlike the 22 year old he tried to pressure into having sex with him. And successfully pressured into oral sex
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:28 PM   #87
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A few thoughts:

One of the difficulties in discussing this sort of stuff is that men and women generally have very different perspectives on it - there is a bunch of common ground that we all kind of accept and share an understanding - but then there are some tricky areas.

One of the things that strikes me whenever the question of motive and communication comes up, is that on paper the clumsy novice misreading signals or mis-communicating intent looks awfully similar to the intentional and manipulative attempts at coercion that border on a kind of assault. And so it looks really easy to confuse the two.

I think it is different when you're in it.

There is a side to some men that other men generally don't get to see. And because most of those other men don't really get to see it, what they get is a description of a way of behaving, or a set of actions in which they can see echoes of their own clumsy, youthful attempts at sex and communication. What they don't get to see are the eyes of that kind of man when he is doing that kind of stuff.

See, that is something that is generally only seen by women (or gay men) who encounter this kind of man. And most men who get told about this stuff are decent human beings who don't think the way that guy does and for all the much publicised locker room humour, have probably been exposed to much less of that way of thinking than your average woman has, by the time she hits her 25th birthday.

I've experienced youthful (and in one case not so youthful) clumsy fumblings and I've experienced predatory and coercive men. Fortunately not in great numbers.

It's hard to explain but I do think you know it when you see it. The lizard brain does not scream threat over inept fumbles. But that is a distinction that is very hard to pin down after.
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:30 PM   #88
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
well, the argument made by the NYT Opinion writer is that it is anti-feminist to say that women need that level of protection from awkward sexuality
That seems like a fair point of view. Of course, we could take the labels off this and stop caring whether it meets one person's criteria of feminism.

I think we agree there are two elements:
1) an empowered person being competent at defending their boundaries
2) an ethical person not putting others in a situation requiring them to do so

There is a central argument in my mind which states, if person #2 doesn't commit the initial offense, then person #1 would not be in the situation to require any kind of response.

It seems to me that it is wrong, gross, and piggish to gloss over person #2's actions and require person #1 to do anything at all to "fix" the situation that they didn't create. That's totally backwards. It makes more sense to simply address the problem--the behavior.

Doesn't a just society have standards of what is acceptable? Don't we judge people who don't meet them? Yes we do, and we should judge men who do this. That's how society works. If they are not "called out" for this, it means we don't care--we're okay with it.
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:44 PM   #89
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Don't know whether this has already been posted and I missed it, but this is an excellent article:

http://www.huffingtonpost.co.uk/entr...b0106b7f65b346
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Old 01-16-2018, 05:53 PM   #90
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I should probably add to what i said up there, that there is also no doubt a side of some women that other women don't generally get to see as well
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