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Old 05-03-2009, 02:53 PM   #106
Redux
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Originally Posted by TheMercenary View Post
You have to know about the other systems to see the parallels. You obviously don't know about them so I suggest you do some research. I am not about to do that for you.
So you have no cite......again.

Got it.

Last edited by Redux; 05-03-2009 at 03:16 PM.
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:15 PM   #107
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Plenty of citation out there. I am just not going to discuss with you something you don't understand fully. Currently there is no detailed plan on the table.
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:16 PM   #108
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Plenty of citation out there. I am just not going to discuss with you something you don't understand fully. Currently there is no detailed plan on the table.
Plenty of cites? I just asked for one that can provide any factual information that the Democrats will (or have) proposed a UK type national health service.

Next time you ask me for a cite, remember these words:
You obviously don't know (insert issue here) so I suggest you do some research. I am not about to do that for you.
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:19 PM   #109
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http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...c-health-plan/

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...e-non-elderly/

http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...-german-model/

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontl...roundtheworld/
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:20 PM   #110
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Originally Posted by Redux View Post
Plenty of cites? I just asked for one that can provide any factual information that the Democrats will (or have) proposed a UK type national health service.

Next time you ask me for a cite, remember these words:
You obviously don't know (insert issue here) so I suggest you do some research. I am not about to do that for you.
~ The Merc.
You still can't show me the details of a plan that is being proposed by Congress and Obama can you?
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:24 PM   #111
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LOL.

On a quick read, you have a guy who is comparing an expanded medicare type plan to European plans.

There is no expanded medicare type plan on the table.

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Originally Posted by TheMercenary View Post
You still can't show me the details of a plan that is being proposed by Congress and Obama can you?
I gave you the general principles of the plans as discussed by Obama and Congressional Democrats.

There is no plan, nor have there been discussion, of a UK or German or Japanese national health service type.

There is no plan, nor have their been discussions, of a plan funded primarily through general taxes instead of employer/employee premiums.

The framework has been more affordable and accessible through employer based plans, supplemented by government administered FEHB type.

Last edited by Redux; 05-03-2009 at 03:33 PM.
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:34 PM   #112
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Its all the same bullshit...again and again....issue after issue.

Obama and the Democrats are nationalizing the banks...nationalizing health care...intruding into every possible nook and cranny of our lives.....redistributing the wealth....Socialism is coming!

Will says it...Malkin says it...Limbaugh says it......it must be true!

Get over it, dude!
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:50 PM   #113
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Originally Posted by Redux View Post
LOL.

On a quick read, you have a guy who is comparing an expanded medicare type plan to European plans.

There is no expanded medicare type plan on the table.


I gave you the general principles of the plans as discussed by Obama and Congressional Democrats.

There is no plan, nor have there been discussion, of a UK or German or Japanese national health service type.

There is no plan, nor have their been discussions, of a plan funded primarily through general taxes instead of employer/employee premiums.

The framework has been more affordable and accessible through employer based plans, supplemented by government administered FEHB type.
Again you are uninformed. The plan generally proposed by Obama during the campaign are from an amalgamation of a number of plans from other countries around the world. You only need to educate yourself to understand the similarities. You say it is not going to be funded through a general tax, but yet you can't say where the money is going to come from? Obama has not proposed supplemental plans, he proposed an either employer based plan or government adminstered plans, not employer based. You have a lot of home work to do on this one.
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Old 05-03-2009, 03:52 PM   #114
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Originally Posted by Redux View Post
Its all the same bullshit...again and again....issue after issue.

Obama and the Democrats are nationalizing the banks...nationalizing health care...intruding into every possible nook and cranny of our lives.....redistributing the wealth....Socialism is coming!
Welcome to a world of US politics dominated one party rule. It just so happens this time it is the Demoncrats. Time will tell. I am willing to wait around to see. But you are right. Demoncrats have intruded into the freemarket to a level never seen before and it makes people nervous. Into the banks, into the auto industry, and now into health care, and it makes people very uncomfortable. You may be comfortable with "I am the government, I am here to help", I am not.
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Old 05-03-2009, 04:12 PM   #115
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Some more great discussions about the current plans. The first two actually took place before the election but it talks about the uncertainty in just how Obama would be able to pull this off without significant concessions by the insurance industry, doctors, and the whole health industry.

http://www.pbs.org/pov/pov2008/criti...interview.html

http://www.medpagetoday.com/Washingt...on-Watch/10652

http://healthcare.nationaljournal.co...ured-how-h.php

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...ryId=101706614
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Old 05-03-2009, 04:20 PM   #116
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One of the more detailed discussions of Obama's proposals during the run up to the election":

Quote:
He would reinsure employer plans for a portion of their catastrophic costs. This would reduce employer costs but it would do so by simply shifting them onto the government. He runs the risk of shifting these costs away from a market that now has incentives to manage them to a big government program that likely will not have the same incentives to confront and manage them. I don’t see this as cost saving as much as just cost shifting.
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Obama would make the insurance markets more competitive and efficient by creating the “National Health Insurance Exchange” to promote more efficient competition and he would set a minimum health cost ratio for insurers—not defined in detail. Reducing insurance company overhead is important but constitutes only a small percentage of costs and those overhead costs have been increasing at the rate of general inflation while health care costs have been increasing by two to four times the basic inflation rate in recent years. The biggest cost containment challenge is in the fundamental cost of health care itself.
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Capping or even reducing costs means you have to cap or reduce costs. There are no magic bullets that reduce payments without doctors, hospitals, insurers, and lawyers getting less than they would have gotten. All of the health IT, prevention, wellness, and the like will not reduce costs by any big amount at least in the short term.
http://www.thehealthcareblog.com/the...iled-anal.html
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Old 05-03-2009, 04:25 PM   #117
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Thanks for all the links.

Not one points to anything remotely like a UK, European or Japanese style national health care service. Only George Will's editorial..if that is an example your homework, you still havent supported your basic claim.

Several of the above point to encouraging competition, forcing concessions by the bloated insurance industry. Nothing wrong with that, IMO.

For the first time in years, the insurance industry has agreed to come to the table and be part of a broad solution and even offering concessions already (pre-existing conditions, portability) , as long as they are not frozen out of the market..and there is NO intention to freeze them out of the market.
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Old 05-03-2009, 04:30 PM   #118
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Like I said in a previous post. If you understand how the other programs work in the other countries you see the comparisons. Nothing Obama has proposed is detailed to this point. I suspect we will not know until the Dems ram it through Congress and it pops out the otherside as a mandate. But that is JMHO.
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Old 05-03-2009, 04:46 PM   #119
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It would require a major realignment of professional and economic power on the supply side.

Third, on the health insurance facet, the president would like to develop a well-functioning market for individually purchased health insurance, as an alternative to the employment-based system which covers most insured non-elderly Americans.

There now is such a market, but it covers only a small fraction of non-elderly Americans, primarily because it is highly fragmented and, moreover, in most states pegs the individual’s insurance premiums to that individual’s health status. To reform this market, the president would establish a National Insurance Exchange.

This can be thought of as the analogue to a farmers’ market on which competing insurers offer their products, subject to a set of regulations that make transactions in the market transparent and honorable, and the competition among insurers fair.

A major contentious issue here is whether the insurers competing in this market should include a newly established public insurance plan like Medicare, but for the non-elderly.

Quote:
It would also disseminate information from what should be called “cost-effectiveness analysis,” but, as was discussed in earlier posts, has been constrained to be mere “comparative effectiveness analysis” (see this and this for more on this subject).

Finally, to make all of these pieces work harmoniously together — toward the social goals of improving the health status of Americans by providing all of them with access to timely care, and of protecting their budgets from undue inroads of medical bills — there would have to be a whole set of additional government regulations, mainly on the health insurance industry.
From one of my previous links:
http://economix.blogs.nytimes.com/20...c-health-plan/

Quote:
Germany has one of the best health care systems in the world, providing its residents with comprehensive health insurance coverage. The health insurance reform 2007 requires everyone living in Germany to be insured for at least hospital and out-patient medical treatment.

The options available to you for health insurance while living in Germany are the government-regulated public health insurance system, private health insurance from a German or international insurance company or a combination of the two.
http://www.howtogermany.com/pages/insurance.html

Quote:
This is the normal health care cover that most Germans have. Essentially, you pay a fixed percentage of your salary to an insurance company and your employer does the same. Then, the insurance company provides you with health cover.

The percentage varies from one part of the country to another. For example, in Konstanz, which is a popular retirement destination, large numbers of old folk are subsidised by those in work and the percentage is high. Also, if your monthly earnings are above (currently) DeM6300, you only pay the percentage on that first DeM6300.

This is a much more extensive scheme than the UK and that sounds good until you consider a few things:

You are paying for it yourself. If you are contracting, then any employers contributions that you pay are coming out of your own money.

The scheme is actually rather more comprehensive that you might ever want or need and remember, you are paying for it!

There are some benefits for which you are unlikely to be eligible even though you are paying for them.

If you are earning a good income, you may well find that you are paying an awful lot of contributions.

In the Krankenkasse, highly paid single people are subsidising poorly paid people with large families.

The main alternative to the Krankenkasse is the Privatkasse. This is a private scheme where you pay an amount linked not to your income but to your health outlook. So, if you are old, have a poor medical history or a large family, you will pay more than a young single person.

If your income through a German employer is higher than a certain level, you are permitted to leave the Krankenkasse and join a Privatkasse. In the Krankenkasse scheme, you pay a fixed percentage of your income and so, young healthy single workers end up subsidising the old, the sick, the unemployed and those with large families.

This ability to opt out of the need to subsidise those other groups is the main appeal of the Privatkasse scheme. There is of course a drawback. Once you enter the Privatkasse, you are not allowed to go back into the Krankenkasse scheme. So, you have to be certain that you can fund your private cover for the rest of your life.

Rather than the pooled social fund structure of the Krankenkasse, the Privatekasse is an insurance scheme and so your premiums will increase as you age or as you aquire dependants etc.

When you are in employment, your employer must match your contribution to the Privatkasse scheme but, after retirement, you have to pay for the whole deal from your pension or other resources.

As with the Krankenkasse, you need to be an employee of a German company or a self employed person in order to join the Privatkasse scheme.
http://www.jpoc.net/countries/german...anschemes.html
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Old 05-03-2009, 07:25 PM   #120
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Medicare is a government run plan.

The Federal Employees plan is a government administered plan....with a variety of choices from among private providers, depending on if the employee wants a Chevy or a Cadillac.
... and how cost effective are they?
What are the positive & negative attributes of each?
How do they differ from the current independent plans available?
Why cannot those people without insurance become covered under one of those plans?
Why do we need another Gov't run/administered program?
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