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Old 07-24-2015, 08:21 AM   #166
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Meanwhile boys have to play flag or touch football, can't wrestle in class even if both kids are having fun and no one is getting hurt, and generally must behave in a more restrained manner because there are females in the building (both child and adult, ironically) who are made uncomfortable by physicality even when it doesn't touch them. Just because the compromises are different doesn't mean there aren't compromises on both sides.
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Old 07-24-2015, 09:23 AM   #167
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Stories like this abound. I haven't heard much objection to the idea of a dress codeo one is lobbying for the right to wear a toga or a swim suit or anything else ridiculous. What all the objections seem to be about are the sexual distraction a given outfit represents. As glatt points out and as I'm sure we've all experienced, sexual distraction is in the eye (or pants) of the beholder. It doesn't *have* to be especially revealing or exposing.

Reading through these articles I find one other thing common and that is the way the adults handle the situation is awful. The sexual shaming directed at these girls is horrible. It's not an exaggeration to see that comments like "your bare shoulder/curvy thigh/exposed neck/ankle/does it really matter? is provocative and invites unwelcome attention" is just more support of the rape culture. "She was asking for it, just look at that midriff." What. Bullshit.

When my daughter chooses her outfit, there's nothing in her closet that justifies sexual assault. And the same goes for my sons--what a woman in their field of view is wearing is in no way an excuse for any improper behavior on their part. Period.
Quote:
Rape culture is also evident in the attitudes that lead school administrators to treat young girls’ bodies as inherently “distracting” to the boys who simply can’t control themselves. That approach to gender roles simply encourages our youth to assume that sexual crimes must have something to do with women’s “suggestive” clothes or behavior, rather than teaching them that every individual is responsible for respecting others’ bodily autonomy.
Listen to some of these idiot adult authorities (and their deputized parents/grandparents/meddling bystanders).

“Have y’all ever seen any ‘skanks’ around this school…I don’t want to see anyone’s ass hanging out of their shorts.”
Quote:
A school superintendent in Noble, Oklahoma allegedly asked female students to bend over during a dress code check on the first week of school and claimed, “If you’re not comfortable with bending over, we might have a problem.”
For fuck's sake.

#CropTopDay
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In an event page on Facebook, Halket wrote that a male teacher at Etobicoke School of the Arts complained that a shirt she was wearing one day looked “too much like a sports bra.”

“I went in to the office and refused to change or cover up, and I was sent to the principal where we talked for over an hour and came to no conclusion except a threat that if I wore something like this again I would be called in to the office,” she wrote.
Lots of good discussion in the comments on this article.

Teen Girl Kicked Out Of Prom So Her Dress Wouldn’t Lead Boys To ‘Think Impure Thoughts’
Quote:
A 17-year-old high schooler from Virginia says she was kicked out of her prom because the parental chaperones were worried she was inspiring “impure thoughts” among the boys in attendance. Even though her dress adhered to the “fingertip length” dress code requirement, she was asked to leave.
More slut-shaming dress code examples.

No tight pants.

No yoga pants.

No curvature of breasts.

Kindergartner's skirt too short one week, not the other.

Degrading clothing inspections bordering on sexual harassment.

It is ridiculous. The sad thing is that this *could be* a golden opportunity, a teachable moment for all, including the person wearing the clothing about how to handle "distracting situations", but alas. No. I think it'll be alright, the stories we hear about are the epic fuckups by the administrators and parents; the successful outcomes just don't make the news, but I know they're out there. But some of these administrators need a different job.
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Old 07-24-2015, 10:03 AM   #168
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That's a good point Clod - but, I think BigV nails what it is I find objectionable about the way that some schools approach this issue.
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Old 07-24-2015, 10:45 AM   #169
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I personally would take issue about not been able to go to school in Toga, but that's just me... and the fact me and the rest of my HS geek squad used to organize the local LARP scene...

Unfortunately... I looked up the dress code of the countries ranked at the top of student performance, admittedly hoping to see no correlation at all and coming back here with definite proof that the whole thing's bullshit, and... It did not give me what I was hoping for. Kind of the opposite:


1. China
Quote:
Uniforms are a common part of the schools in China. Almost all secondary schools as well as some elementary schools require students to wear uniforms. Uniforms in mainland China usually consist of five sets, 2 formal sets and 3 everyday sets. Formal sets are for Mondays or special occasions (school anniversaries, school ceremonies, etc.), and is consist of a white collared shirt with sweater on top and a skirt for girls and a suit for boys.
2. Singapore
Quote:
Like all schools in Singapore, SAS has a dress code and students are to remain in school uniform for the entire school day.

The SAS student uniform consists of a white polo shirt with an embroidered logo and navy bottoms, also with an embroidered logo. Students require both regular uniforms and PE uniforms. Alternate dress days occur twice each month and are noted on the school calendar.
3. Japan
Quote:
Japan introduced school uniforms in the late 19th century. Today, school uniforms are almost universal in the public and private school systems.
4. South Korea
Quote:
Almost all South Korean secondary students wear a uniform called Gyobok (Hangul: 교복; hanja: 校服). The majority of elementary schools except some private elementary schools do not have uniforms; however, the uniform is strictly monitored from the start of middle school and up. A typical South Korean uniform usually consists of a shirt, blazer and tie, with skirts for girls and long grey trousers for boys.

5. New Zealand
Quote:
Traditionally, many New Zealand intermediate and high schools, and state-integrated and private primary schools, have followed the British system of school uniforms,[41] although it is common in state schools for the boy's uniform to have a jersey and grey short trousers rather than a blazer with tie and long trousers.
:-/
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Old 07-24-2015, 11:03 AM   #170
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I have no problem with school uniforms. It's pretty much the norm here for secondary, and even some primary schools.
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Old 07-24-2015, 11:19 AM   #171
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
I have no problem with school uniforms. It's pretty much the norm here for secondary, and even some primary schools.
Isn't that like... The most extreme of all dress codes?
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Old 07-24-2015, 11:37 AM   #172
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My problem isn't with dress codes - my problem is that even in an environment without a formal uniform, the dress codes for girls are often partly founded on what may or may not distract the boys. The emphasis in how schoolgirls' clothing is policed by the school is, very often, on ideas of immorality and sexual immodesty - and in the school's communication of that the message given to the girls is clear: you will dress modestly so that your inherent and unavoidable sexual presence is not a distraction to male students

I have far less of a problem with a dress code founded on, and communicated as, maintaining a kind of professional standard.
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Old 07-24-2015, 05:27 PM   #173
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
My problem isn't with dress codes - my problem is that even in an environment without a formal uniform, the dress codes for girls are often partly founded on what may or may not distract the boys. The emphasis in how schoolgirls' clothing is policed by the school is, very often, on ideas of immorality and sexual immodesty - and in the school's communication of that the message given to the girls is clear: you will dress modestly so that your inherent and unavoidable sexual presence is not a distraction to male students

I have far less of a problem with a dress code founded on, and communicated as, maintaining a kind of professional standard.
I see that, so it's not so much the problem with their action but the intent and reasoning behind it....

I think I agree that it's dumb and arbitrary and set in an accumilation of traditional mindset, I just don't see how this is an exception to any other aspect of cultural dress codes, anywhere. From the western obsession with bras to African nudist tribes that tie up up penises so they won't show when they are erect qualifies for this. It's the process from which we generate dress codes... Culturally. It's always going to be silly and arbitrary and set in traditions with complete disregard to whether they make much sense.

The question of whether those should be enforced in general (Legally) or in small scale (Such as schools) is another one altogether, and my personal answer is "no" mixed with "I should be able to sue governments that measure up my toga length for sexual harassment, my eyes are up here!". But, while I don't know about you, I am not expecting a libertarian utopia any time soon...
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Old 07-25-2015, 05:50 PM   #174
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Slightly relevant brain dump of an argument I had in my head and have no real context to get it out... If anyone here would like to pretend you've invoked Lewis's law for me to address, feel free to do so. Now...

i think the problem with Lewis's law is that the exact same principle would apply from the perspective of any movement which feels like it is fighting for a cause demanding a single mindset.
That is, if you are a x, and If someone speaks positively of x, it will naturally justify it, and if someone criticizes, disagrees or speaks about x negatively in anyway, it shows you have resistance against what you believe x stands for and thus x is justified in fighting off that resistance, because part of the cause is getting everyone else to agree with you. and given how positive your movement clearly is, or otherwise you wouldn't be in it, speaking about it neutrally is in itself negative because it demonstrates the speaker doesn't acknowledge how positive it truly is.
This will seem like that from the perspective of any movement: Libertarian and communists, the ancient Roman supporter of the emperors and those who fought to restore the senate, democrats, republicans, fundamentalists, militant atheists, pro-palestinians, pro-Israeli, feminists, MRA... It would even apply to arguments within feminist factions, comments made by individualist feminists will justify the cause of collectivist feminists and vise versa. All would feel that the criticism or resistance to their cause justifies the importance of their cause, by the simple act of showing that their cause does not have as much support and agreement as they would like it to have.
Whichever movement you agree with and might feel that said principle applies, you would not be able to explain why it wouldn't equally apply to any movement that resists yours.
And yet, you may have met plenty people on every movement within those who are open to criticism and don't invoke any direct equivalent of Lewis's law. The main mistake here is simple: approaching the argument from the assumption that your movement is right so dogmatically as to assume that regardless of it's content any criticism about your beliefs must be invalid and thus prove that not enough people understand how valid your movement truly is.
And yet, now you can be true to Lewis's 's law and dismiss this all, because in criticizing feminists for invoking Lewis's law, and invoking the suggestion that doing so is dogmatic and close minded, it clearly justifies the need to fight for feminism until people finally understand. ...Except that in doing this, you do not only justify the opposition to feminism on the simple act of resisting them despite the content of your disagreement, rather, you justify it because of it, reinforcing the stereotype of close minded militant fanaticism by actually been true to it, and in doing so, you are making yourself feel better about the cause of the movement at the cost of actual harm for the cause of the movement. Remember, it requires to assume that your movement is already correct in order to identify with the notion that all critique towards it is proof for it's misunderstanding. It acts to increase the loyalty of those already believing in it while alienating not just those on the other side but anyone who might be on the fence, not yet knowing whether what they'll think will be in terms with what the movement believes in and thus not being unseasonable to first asses how you relate to people who question you before they can be new recruits with new questions.

(This is particularly interesting in the case of gender politics because when almost everyone says they are fighting for equality but disagrees on the framework in which it is defined, there is a very fine line between the opposite side and sitting on the fence, as personally I know from experience).
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Old 07-26-2015, 03:38 AM   #175
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Feminism related brain dump #2....

Does anyone else have the sense that the most accurate elements within all those ideologies is the critique they give each other?

The feminists & MGTOW are right - MRA truly do make a reactionist group that is unified by their fight against feminism rather then anything else. You can't argue for equal father's rights and then argue that we should go back to the providers-husbands and housewives, as that is the very dynamic that justifies keeping the father for financials support and giving the mother the major care taking time in the first place. Arguing against feminism matters very little when they can't seem to be able to choose the agenda they want to argue for, and yes, this means they need to loose some support, either loosing the neocons or the progressives, but it also means they get to actually do something beyond bickering.

The feminists and MRA are right - you can't read an MGTOW blog post anywhere without misogyny spilling out on your shoes, unlike the MRA they are clearly not above excluding women from supporting them, and they are destined to go the same way as 2nd wave feminist lesbian separatism - you can only grow your movement so much when you require people to counter their basic physical and emotional needs and you are very unlikely to grow over time at all if you don't apply the most ancient meme transfer mechanism of all - raising children. And no, a small group of hermits tying up their dicks in a chastity belt in protest isn't going to convince anyone of anything.

The MRA & MGTOW are right about most of what they have to say about feminism, which I would expend upon except that it would have to include everything they every said about anything since they had people who can speak since they don''t actually say things other then attacking feminism, so instead I'll point at what IMO is the most notable exception - their historical reevaluation of 1st wave feminism on the inherently unverifiable basis of "it would have happened anyway". The old way was a rotten deal for everyone involved, both men and women, and we don't get to pretend feminist movement didn't bring that change about on the basis of "If they wouldn't someone else would" - credit doesn't work like that, and that someone else wasn't fast enough.
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Old 07-26-2015, 07:02 AM   #176
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Shift the blame...
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Old 07-26-2015, 12:29 PM   #177
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So it's all the fault of Indian cooking!
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Old 07-29-2015, 08:27 AM   #178
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Quote:
Originally Posted by glatt View Post
I wonder why the motorcycle disappears during that loop?

Oh, and in high school, I would totally have been distracted by some girl's midriff. If she was in my class, I'd be staring at her through the whole class, and probably be trying to hide a boner under my notebook. You can't get much hornier than a high school boy.
So true. Even girls who were objectively a solid four became eights or nines when the hormone coefficient was figured in.

I look back at my HS yearbook photos and think "How did I think she was hot?"
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Old 07-29-2015, 08:54 AM   #179
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I'll trade this ability: http://go-girl.com/

For the ability to get laid whenever I want. Then we'd be equal.
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Old 07-29-2015, 08:55 AM   #180
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See, if a girl was exposing her midriff you'd be all goo-goo over her, and if she was wearing a burka you'd still be belly dancing her in your head.

I had a 6 ft blond teacher, fresh out of college, my first year in High School. She had a 6 ft 4 boyfriend, and she drove a tiny Morris Minor. I often imagined them doing it in that car, which would be neigh on to impossible. Through no fault of hers, my hormones could overcome basic physics... or a burka.
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