The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Home Base

Home Base A starting point, and place for threads don't seem to belong anywhere else

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 08-20-2004, 09:22 AM   #1
Griff
still says videotape
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 22,979
Scouting, yea or nay?

We're getting some pressure to get the girls involved in a scouting organization. I never joined and always just assumed that scouting was based in early 20th century totalitarianism and a really bad idea. We may not let them do it just because there are many more valuable ways to spend time but my question is, is there more to scouting than submission to various social "virtues" as defined by the total state?
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Griff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 09:30 AM   #2
garnet
...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff
We're getting some pressure to get the girls involved in a scouting organization. I never joined and always just assumed that scouting was based in early 20th century totalitarianism and a really bad idea. We may not let them do it just because there are many more valuable ways to spend time but my question is, is there more to scouting than submission to various social "virtues" as defined by the total state?
I was a Girl Scout and I loved it. Kids don't really look at the political aspect of it, but I understand your concern about those issues. My biggest issue with scouting is the problems a few years back about the boy scouts not allowing gay leaders. I don't know what the current stance is on that, but I think they lost a lot of support because of it. Anyway, I liked it as a kid, and the Girl Scouts still have the BEST cookies!
garnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 09:56 AM   #3
Troubleshooter
The urban Jane Goodall
 
Join Date: Jan 2004
Location: Florida
Posts: 3,012
I always thought about getting into a few girl scouts myself.
__________________
I have gained this from philosophy: that I do without being commanded what others do only from fear of the law. - Aristotle
Troubleshooter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 10:05 AM   #4
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 18,699
I was never a girl scout in reality, but every year I would "join" (and my mother would pay my yearly dues) just before the summer so I could go to the girl scout summer camp, which was a lot of fun. But my impression has always been that Boy Scouts are much more educational and interesting, the girls seemed to do nothing but make arts and crafts and sell cookies. We certainly didn't have anything like Philmont.
Clodfobble is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 10:29 AM   #5
Happy Monkey
I think this line's mostly filler.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 12,687
The quality of the Scouting experience is about 97% based on the leadership of the particualr troop. I was a Boy Scout for years, in an awesome troop (Troop 666, of course), and had a blast. We had trips to New Mexico, Alaska, and Canada, in addition to monthly weekend camping trips and summer camps. We came into contact with other troops which seemed to be much less interesting.

My sisters were in Girl Scouts for a while, and despite my mom's best efforts, it was little more than a social club.

As for the politics, the Boy Scouts' position against gays and atheists remains, and is unlikely to change - the high positions in the organization are dominated by the Mormon Church. It didn't affect me much as a Scout, but it does annoy me now. The Girl Scouts are unencumbered by that problem.
__________________
_________________
|...............| We live in the nick of times.
| Len 17, Wid 3 |
|_______________| [pics]
Happy Monkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 11:12 AM   #6
wolf
lobber of scimitars
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Phila Burbs
Posts: 20,773
I was a girl scout. As a consequence of this I am able to make a nice salad shaped like a bunny and know how to introduce people at a party and lay a table. They taught me nothing about pitching a tent or laying a fire that I didn't teach myself.

If you want further PC indoctrination for your girls, go for it. Oh, and don't forget the yearly ritual of the cookie sale. You can do without the cookie sale.

As a kid I always thought the Campfire Girls were doing cooler stuff than the Girl Scouts. Are they still around?

I have heard of a pagan organization called the Spiral Scouts that may or may not do more "real" scouting.
__________________
wolf eht htiw og

"Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island

High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis
wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 11:17 AM   #7
Cyber Wolf
As stable as a ring of PU-239
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: On a huge rock covered in water, highly advanced moss and 7 billion parasites
Posts: 1,264
I was a Girl Scout too for several years and for me the meetings and activities seemed much like school for teaching values, but much more fun. Garnet's right, when you're that age it doesn't matter what the political ideals behind it are. You're more concerned with writing that simple program to get your Computer Science badge or your time spent helping out at a horse stable to get your Animal Care badge. The rewards you get as a kid in scouting are something you can feel proud about for the rest of your life, be it a sash full of pins and badges, the friends you make, knowledge of the places you go...I say go for it. If they simply don't like it, take them out of the program and no harm done.
__________________
"I don't see what's so triffic about creating people as people and then getting' upset 'cos they act like people." ~Adam Young, Good Omens

"I don't see why it matters what is written. Not when it's about people. It can always be crossed out." ~Adam Young, Good Omens
Cyber Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 11:26 AM   #8
wolf
lobber of scimitars
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Phila Burbs
Posts: 20,773
The political ideas are important ... even/especially if the child doesn't understand them. That way they accept these ideas without questioning. "Give me your children until you are 12 and they will be mine forever." (isn't that how the saying goes?)

Some kids can break free of the indoctrination, if they are sharp enough and start to question early enough.
__________________
wolf eht htiw og

"Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island

High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis
wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 11:40 AM   #9
Griff
still says videotape
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 22,979
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf
If you want further PC indoctrination for your girls, go for it. Oh, and don't forget the yearly ritual of the cookie sale. You can do without the cookie sale.
This outfit looks worse in the other direction. I didn't want to color folks reactions before mentioning the group. It's the Little Flowers a Catholic outfit which seems more reactionary with each further bit of info I find. It appears that they want to drive women back into the kitchen for tea parties etc... I won't be doing this to my kids. Pete did the girl scouts and to her it felt like homework. I love the Church but I recognize that parts of her can be cultish and manipulative. This subset doesn't look healthy to me. Before I looked into it I assumed the LFs were older than they are and maybe a reaction to the statist indoctrination from Boy/Girl scouts, Hitler Youth, Stalins bunch or whoever. It appears that its just an anti-modernist outfit.
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Griff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 11:42 AM   #10
cowhead
halve your cake and eat it too.
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Georgia.. by way of Lawrence Kansas
Posts: 1,359
although I wasn't a girl scout.. I was in scouting from cubscout on to life rank in boyscouts.. for me it was a very very rewarding experience.. although, I have always thought thta there ought to be a gender neutral scouting group... although that obviously has logistical problems (mush less people being weird about their children being around members of the oppposite sex when there is a percieved lack of 'supervision'.. although that is understandable.)

A good deal of my friends who are female went to girlscouts and are of the general opinion that boy scouts would have been much more fun (and a lot less 'crafty' and more usefull).

my main problem was with the religious aspect of it.. but then again I got to be the kids who stayed back at camp while everyone else was at 'church' to tend the fires.. foreshadowing perhaps?

(and sweet jeebus! how many times can yo using kum-by-ya-my-lord anyway?)
__________________
no my child.. this is not my desire..I'm digging for fire.
cowhead is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 11:53 AM   #11
99 44/100% pure
Infrequently Astonished
 
Join Date: Dec 2002
Location: Baltimore metro area
Posts: 324
Old me:
Who cares?

New me (politically aware and active parent:
Boy Scouts:
Girl Scouts:

I was so upset about the very public stance of BSA against gays and non-allegiance-swearing Christians that I stopped donating through the United Way of Central Maryland (because a small portion of my donation would have inevitably found its way to BSA) and wrote many letters to United Way and local print media to explain why.

I have also worked to limit BSA's access to free use of public facilities and access to our children through the sending of flyers via sneaker net (stuff sent home with kids in school folders -- implying the endorsement of the school system). I know I am an extreme case, after all, I have no direct connection with the gay rights movement, or with BSA, but this kind of complicit support by public institutions, and the use of tax dollars to promote organizations involved in blatant discrimination gets my goat.

If you are interested in this situation, here are some useful links:
http://www.scoutingforall.org/index.shtml
http://www.ffrf.org/issues/?t=bsa.txt

(disclaimer: I am not completely familiar with the organizations which published these items; they're just good starting points to explore this issue.)

Sorry about the rant. As far as I know, Girl Scouts has come a long way from the 'social meetings' some of us remember from our long-ago childhoods, and sets the standard for values and skills based member organizations for kids. As with other volunteer-driven organizations, the experience for each kid will depend largely upon the effectiveness of the local leaders.
__________________
Overcompensating for the 0.56% that is irredeemably corrupted.
99 44/100% pure is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 12:01 PM   #12
wolf
lobber of scimitars
 
Join Date: Jul 2001
Location: Phila Burbs
Posts: 20,773
I applaud the Boy Scouts desire to stand true to their charter and founding ideals.
__________________
wolf eht htiw og

"Conspiracies are the norm, not the exception." --G. Edward Griffin The Creature from Jekyll Island

High Priestess of the Church of the Whale Penis
wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 12:02 PM   #13
Cyber Wolf
As stable as a ring of PU-239
 
Join Date: Jun 2004
Location: On a huge rock covered in water, highly advanced moss and 7 billion parasites
Posts: 1,264
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff
It's the Little Flowers a Catholic outfit which seems more reactionary with each further bit of info I find. It appears that they want to drive women back into the kitchen for tea parties etc... I won't be doing this to my kids.
Have you looked in depth into the curriculum and seen what activites are available? There's a lot more than what it seems you've seen or heard about. When I was going through, it wasn't like tea parties, women in the kitchen, sew the clothes, make the dinner and submit to the husband stuff and I was in the Scouts for about 5 years and I was already a gender stereotype rebel at that age. I spent most of my time doing arts and crafts and moving along in technology and focusing on animal care. Hardly tea, very much a party. There are times when they teach girls 'manners', things like politeness, how to set a table, yes there are cooking curriculums. But these things aren't 'girl' things when it comes down to it. For example, understanding of mixing things and cooking lead to easier comprehension of chemistry (it did for me anyway, got me through the class in high school). At a business dinner, it's always good to know what fork to eat with first. Anyway, you can tell your kids that what they learn in Scouts is more guidelines than rules. As for me, I can confidently say that if I hadn't gone through the technology interests at that time, I wouldn't be in graduate school working towards an info. systems masters right now.

Scouting is not for everyone, consult your family doctrines before use.
__________________
"I don't see what's so triffic about creating people as people and then getting' upset 'cos they act like people." ~Adam Young, Good Omens

"I don't see why it matters what is written. Not when it's about people. It can always be crossed out." ~Adam Young, Good Omens
Cyber Wolf is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 12:07 PM   #14
garnet
...
 
Join Date: Aug 2004
Posts: 657
Quote:
Originally Posted by 99 44/100% pure
As far as I know, Girl Scouts has come a long way from the 'social meetings' some of us remember from our long-ago childhoods, and sets the standard for values and skills based member organizations for kids. As with other volunteer-driven organizations, the experience for each kid will depend largely upon the effectiveness of the local leaders.
I'd actually be curious as to what modern day girl scout activities are. Looking back, in my day there was a bit too much emphasis on arts and crafts and "girly" stuff, so I wonder if in reality that's changed much. My troop was big on camping trips, though, and we always got nature and science information on those trips. But you're right, it depends A LOT on who's in charge. It's not always a win-win situation.
garnet is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 08-20-2004, 12:23 PM   #15
SteveDallas
Your Bartender
 
Join Date: Jan 2002
Location: Philly Burbs, PA
Posts: 7,626
Quote:
Originally Posted by wolf
As a consequence of this I am able to make a nice salad shaped like a bunny
I can't believe you didn't treat us to this at forks!
SteveDallas is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 09:00 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.