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Old 12-15-2017, 08:56 AM   #31
Undertoad
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All true

The one thought I had about unfriending Syc was, well, it's not a big deal; he knows where to find me...
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:00 AM   #32
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Found an interesting piece on workplace training.

Quote:
Many people are familiar with typical corporate training to prevent sexual harassment: clicking through a PowerPoint, checking a box that you read the employee handbook or attending a mandatory seminar at which someone lectures about harassment while attendees glance at their phones.

At best, research has found, that type of training succeeds in teaching people basic information, like the definition of harassment and how to report violations. At worst, it can make them uncomfortable, prompting defensive jokes, or reinforce gender stereotypes, potentially making harassment worse. Either way, it usually fails to address the root problem: preventing sexual harassment from happening in the first place.
Quote:
“Organizations often implement training programs in order to reduce their likelihood of being named in harassment suits or to check a box for E.E.O.C. purposes,” Ms. King said, referring to the Equal Employment Opportunity Commission. “If we’re actually trying to change or reduce the likelihood of sexual harassment, that’s a different outcome altogether. That’s not a knowledge problem, that’s a behavior problem.”
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:33 AM   #33
tw
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Humphrey Bogart grabbed the girl and kissed her. Everyone wanted to be a man just like Bogart. Today that is sexual harassment.
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Old 12-15-2017, 11:59 AM   #34
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But Bogart followed the three simple rules. The great Fred Armisen, the great Amy Poehler, the great Tina Fey, and the Greatest Of All Time Tom Brady explain, in this public service announcement.

http://www.nbc.com/saturday-night-li.../2751966?snl=1
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:39 PM   #35
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Just being argumentative has led you to casting me as bad. Yeah don't do that. Assume I'm good. You've had 15 years and 25,000 posts to figure me out, you should know by now.

You can assume I would actually say something if I were ever in the position of being able to do so and assuming this situation was understood and there was benefit. I don't know why I have to say this.
Back to my first response then. When someone says you should do something good, say "well, of course, obviously!"

I do assume you're good, which is why I was surprised at your reaction.

Using "virtue signalling" as a pejorative is just about the definition of assuming that people are bad, and would only advocate for something good to trick you.
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Old 12-15-2017, 12:54 PM   #36
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People are bad, mmkay?
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Old 12-15-2017, 01:25 PM   #37
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So you're on Team Yenta, is what you're saying.



I'd have to friend him again to fetch my actual wording. I've described it, but you could assume it was something like

"Good guys, you don't need any additional instructions. You were on the right track all along. Just keep being awesome."



Horrified gasp? Unleash the hounds?
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Old 12-15-2017, 02:51 PM   #38
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I don't believe most men who rape or abuse women are necessarily sociopaths. I think there is a gulf of difference between not being capable of empathy and being unpractised in applying empathy to a group of people who you've been raised to believe are fundamentally different from you.

There's also, I think, a tendency for some men to desire women, and also resent them for being desirable and feel they are entitled to them: They've done everything right, they're a nice guy, they don't beat women up or treat them bad, so what gives those bitches the right to throw their desire back in their faces, when they should be rewarded - after all they earned it. I mean, even the way they walk is an invitation right? They must know the power they hold - just by being desirable - and they hold that over the guy, right? They fucking know.

A sociopath isn't going to give a shit what others think. But different perhaps for an emotionally immature young man who has been raised in a culture/family that has coded women as fundamentally other - and as a thing to be won/earned, and maybe surrounded by other men who see girls in terms of prey or conquest, with more than a little stripe of the Enemy in the War of the Sexes ( the We Were Kings attitude)

Jokes and the general cultural noise that surrounds can confirm all of that or challenge it. And men who don't really see women as being the same or equal are far more likely to listen other men that they respect or can relate to.

Not saying it would prevent a determined rapist from acting, nor convince a sociopath to change their ways - but it might help clue some young men in to the fact that their way of perceiving women isn't actually the norm, nor is it healthy

We seek validation and confirmation from our social peers. For young men who see female as fundamentally other, those peers are male.
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:06 PM   #39
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Quote:
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I don't believe most men who rape or abuse women are necessarily sociopaths.
Why would anyone even assume that?

This attitude change is coming in waves. An eariler wave was, for example, Farrah Fawcett's Burning Bed movie. It resulted in law enforcement actually enforcing domestic violence laws.

Second was Anita Hill's testimony before a Senate Judiciary Committee. Clarence Thomas got confirmed in part because the 'good old boy' network suppressed testimony of Thomas' repeated sexual harassment of many women. Clarence Thomas, in history, will probably among the weakest Supreme Court justices. But that is not as significant as the controversy that Anita Hills testimony started. Sudden people began to understand what sexual harassment is.

In this third wave, we have finally decided that sexual harassment is justification for legal action. Since Anita Hill's testimony, it should have been. But it took this long for some to finally admit it even exists.

So what might be a fourth wave in 20 year? What is the next step in admitting, addressing, and eliminating this situation? Will it go from a western 'industrial nation' domestic problem to an international one? Or will there be a backlash when it goes too far?
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Old 12-15-2017, 09:14 PM   #40
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Quote:
Since Anita Hill's testimony, it should have been. But it took this long for some to finally admit it even exists.
Between Anita Hill and now, there was a pause in our evolution due to an unfortunate national sequence of events that happened.
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Old 12-16-2017, 06:43 PM   #41
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I'm waiting for an instance of one person being charged with sexual harassment by another; but, both being so desperate for publicity that they agree on an apology, forgiveness, and make-up sex just to get their names out there.
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Old 12-16-2017, 11:30 PM   #42
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I am troubled by some who immediately react to allegations. It is difficult to know whether some accusations were vetted before dismal or suspension. That creates prime opportunity for the fake news people (Trump organization, Russians, etc) to invent allegations with bogus witnesses.
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Old 12-17-2017, 07:29 AM   #43
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad
The calculation of "those guys think it is ok therefore it is ok" is OUR logic because we are normal. But it's not the way a sociopath would reason; with a lack of empathy, what other people think and how they will cast judgement is not important to them. I would imagine that a sociopath is more likely to rape because it's NOT socially acceptable. But like I say, that's just my guess.
The Stanford Experiment showed we're all just a half-step away from being sociopaths. We're herd animals, more like, and we follow what we see (or what we perceive, at any rate--and in the absence of clear signals, we see what we want to see.)

It's true that good guys don't have to do anything but keep being awesome. But like Dana said, it's also nice when the good guys can evangelize a little to the mediocre guys, because it helps out us folks who the mediocre guys see as objects and would never have listened to in the first place. However, I do agree that large public pronouncements are often virtue signaling, and sometimes even evidence of a hidden problem--like Weinstein at the Women's March, or to a lesser degree, Syc's really weird possessiveness of his new wife's kid. What matters is not what you declare on Facebook, but what you say to your best friend, one-on-one, when the two of you are talking about that chick you wanna bang. You are good, UT, and I trust that you'd want to say the right thing. But also, sometimes we're all Billy Bush, laughing along at the horrific guy because we don't know what else to do and we want whoever we're talking to to like us in the moment.
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Old 12-17-2017, 07:37 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by tw View Post
I am troubled by some who immediately react to allegations. It is difficult to know whether some accusations were vetted before dismal or suspension. That creates prime opportunity for the fake news people (Trump organization, Russians, etc) to invent allegations with bogus witnesses.
They already tried. The Washington post was targeted but they did due diligence. It was that same nutter who said Planned Parenthood was selling babies to Chik Fil A
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Old 12-17-2017, 09:32 AM   #45
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Quote:
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.... Planned Parenthood was selling babies to Chik Fil A
OMG. Hilary Clinton was running a sex ring out of a pizza shop. Good thing we have so many people with big guns to stop it. He should have used his 155 mm howizter. We need bigger guns to stop all this evil.

Just say'n.
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