The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Current Events

Current Events Help understand the world by talking about things happening in it

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-17-2017, 01:35 PM   #46
sexobon
^it sings^
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,844
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
... But also, sometimes we're all Billy Bush, laughing along at the horrific guy because we don't know what else to do and we want whoever we're talking to to like us in the moment.
What in the way of sexual misconduct are women laughing along with the horrific woman about; because, they don't know what else to do and they want whoever they're talking to to like them in the moment?
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2017, 03:59 PM   #47
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 18,938
The women often have to laugh along with horrific men, because for them the interaction has a threatening overtone, and humor is often the fastest way out of a situation. I have absolutely laughed off comments that terrified me so that I could remove myself from the conversation.
__________________
My book
My spirit animal
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2017, 04:16 PM   #48
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,492
Quote:
I have absolutely laughed off comments that terrified me so that I could remove myself from the conversation.
Yup
__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2017, 07:26 PM   #49
sexobon
^it sings^
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 7,844
That doesn't address the gist of my question. What in the way of sexual misconduct has women laughing along with another woman because she makes them feel threatened; or, intimidated and they want to gain her acceptance?

Is there no sexual misconduct by women that does that?
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-17-2017, 09:13 PM   #50
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 63,822
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
I have absolutely laughed off comments that terrified me so that I could remove myself from the conversation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
Yup
You hot babes are always at risk.
__________________
Everything is interesting... look closer.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 08:19 AM   #51
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 18,938
Quote:
Originally Posted by sexobon
That doesn't address the gist of my question. What in the way of sexual misconduct has women laughing along with another woman because she makes them feel threatened; or, intimidated and they want to gain her acceptance?

Is there no sexual misconduct by women that does that?
Statistically, no. The closest analogy would be an adult woman making lewd comments about an underage male--perhaps a high school student being preyed on by his teacher, for example--but that shit just doesn't happen, because other women would immediately freak out at any woman who said that, and likely put in a tip to the cops. The "good" women have proven that they will speak up and be proactive, you see, not simply refrain from molesting teens themselves, thus the behavior is perhaps less rampant than it would be if all us moms got together for coffee and leered at the high school kid busing our table and talked about how we were gonna ride that underdeveloped dick all night.
__________________
My book
My spirit animal
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 12:24 PM   #52
Undertoad
Miserable contrarian
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 29,562
"but that shit just doesn't happen, because other women would immediately freak out at any woman who said that"

That's all fine, and if our brains were identical response to the different hormones our bodies create were identical, we'd be down for that approach too.

But they aren't, so what if the "locker room talk" is a necessary part of getting those feelings figured out? What ARE we going to do with these feelings if we can't talk about them?

The feelings are quite different, despite Dana's objection and here is the crux of our differences. For 100,000 years, with no culture to assist, it kept the species thriving under many different conditions, so it is one of the most powerful things we know.

So please feel free to translate:

"Holy shit, I would *destroy* that ass."

to:

"Guys, that waitress over there? I feel a remarkable, mostly inexplicable but unattainable attraction to her, that I cannot possibly just ignore. I would never actually act upon this, and must assume she would not permit it, as a default condition. That is why I must express this in the fiercest way possible, so that it indicates how crazy my own brain is driving me right now. Do you agree because I would like to know I'm not alone in this feeling."

Also you women may not have noticed a different kind of harassment preventative male chatter that happens routinely. It, too, is along the lines of "if you see something, say something" and it goes like this:

"If you so much as look at my woman I will break this cue over your head."

I know there will be objections to the word "my" and etc. so I'll note it doesn't have to be "my" and it doesn't have to be "woman"... "girlfriend" "boyfriend" "daughter" "wife" "friend" or it often just goes unsaid.
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 01:01 PM   #53
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 18,938
Quote:
"If you so much as look at my woman I will break this cue over your head."
Maybe that's where we went off the evolutionary track--we became a polite society first, where men didn't break cues over each other's heads, and then the bad apples became more confident, because they knew no man would make that threat anymore, let alone actually follow through with it? I'm not saying it's a better way to be, I'm just noting that no man was, or even is now, punching Weinstein in the face.

Quote:
"Holy shit, I would *destroy* that ass."
I totally buy the evolutionary nature of this stuff. But isn't the most effective way to temper those feelings for a man to actually be getting laid on a regular basis? And isn't part of the thing that keeps some men from getting laid on a regular basis their poor socialization with regards to women?
__________________
My book
My spirit animal
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 01:42 PM   #54
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,492
We know very little, almost nothing, about how early man interacted and socialised. The idea that we have an unbroken 100,000 years of a particular way of men and women interacting and expressing emotional and sexual needs is one that doesn't really hold up to close scrutiny.

We have recorded history, to give us clues, for the barest fraction of our time as modern humans. The archeaological record is even scanter for periods before cities and settled civilisations.

Even through that small fraction of known human history there have been very different ways of organising societies, very different ways of understanding gender at various times and in various places.

I don't think there are no differences between men and women - I just think that society and culture magnify these beyond what they would naturally be without that cultural influence. There is so much variance between women and between men that it outweighs many of the apparent differences between men and women.

Except that, culturally, men will have a particular set of experiences women generally won't and vice versa.

For instance - we have the notion that men are less in touch with their emotions and women are better at expressing theirs - but I know plenty of women who suck at expressing or understanding their own emotions, and I know plenty of men who have a very nuanced understanding of their own emotions and high levels of empathy.

Things may be weighted one way or another - but often the statistics for tests of emotional maturity, or word usage, or preferences in play for kids, or aptitude for maths and science, caring and languages etc etc show a vast middle ground in which the determining factor is not gender, but much more individual.

In terms of what is or is not acceptable in sexual conduct - well that's a bit of a different thing. Though I don't doubt predatory behaviour can be found in males and females, as can passivity.

Again, though - we can only really judge our time and recent times for any sense of what is, is not, and has been acceptable.
__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 01:48 PM   #55
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,492
Quote:
"Holy shit, I would *destroy* that ass."
Also - that's not really the stuff that needs quashing, so much as the things that hint at (or outright reference) a lack of consent or a sense of predation as ok. That includes catcalling young girls, getting a girl too drunk to object, or joking about rape.

"Holy shit, I would rape that " would be a different matter. Now that's probably not something you'd encounter in your age group - but it's something younger lads have been heard saying.

A few years ago, a group of young men at a party gang raped a young woman who was unconscious. They filmed it on their phones and posted it on Facebook. They didn't think it was rape - she wasn't forced at knifepoint, she wasn't screaming - she didn't say no.

There is a disconnect there where they just didn't see her as a human being. She was a thing to be used. And they didn't see it as an issue - nobody in the party stopped them. They didn't hatch their plan in secret and not speak to anybody not in their circle about it. They did it at a party and posted the video on social media.

I do think things are getting better though. Girls and boys are growing up in a very different culture now and I feel pretty optimistic about the kids coming up now and approaching adulthood. But part of that, I think, is borne of the debate we've been having in our society for the past couple of decades. I also think it's because boys and girls lives and interests don't seem to diverge as sharply as they once did - there are a lot more areas in which they intersect and interact. They have more opportunities to interact with each other in ways that demonstrate the things they share.
__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/

Last edited by DanaC; 12-18-2017 at 02:00 PM.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 02:46 PM   #56
Undertoad
Miserable contrarian
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Cottage of Prussia
Posts: 29,562
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
Maybe that's where we went off the evolutionary track--we became a polite society first, where men didn't break cues over each other's heads
We... we don't?

There is a lack of awareness of this issue, so I am asking any of my fellow guys in the thread, who have been assaulted, or at least physically harassed to the point of being truly frightened, to please use the hashtag #MeAlso in your messages.

#MeAlso

(Me: assaulted several times. Worst assault required plastic surgery. Once was by a teacher in a full classroom. I've faced being beaten by school officials of course, in the north of England and the redneck zone of America. I've run in fear a handful of times. A friend was assaulted two years ago, and another friend threatened a pool cue solid body guitar assault eight years ago. I'm guessing my experience was average.)

Quote:
I'm just noting that no man was, or even is now, punching Weinstein in the face.
Part of his calculation was putting himself in a place where he couldn't be assaulted. Otherwise he would have been; every man knows this. Also, we don't know that he wasn't punched. I imagine he probably was.

Men relentlessly keep quiet about their assaults out of shame.

#MeAlso

Quote:
But isn't the most effective way to temper those feelings for a man to actually be getting laid on a regular basis? And isn't part of the thing that keeps some men from getting laid on a regular basis their poor socialization with regards to women?
'Cept those sexually aggressive guys often wind up socialized specifically for sexual pursuit (and are terrible people in real life, narcissist pricks etc). The ones who are, get laid more regularly than the guys with girlfriends -- we know, we did the math or at least had the math explained to us.

OMG 1 in 200 men is a direct descendant of Genghis Khan. That was a different time. But still, 1 in 200! Dang!
Undertoad is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 02:59 PM   #57
Gravdigr
The Un-Tuckian
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Central...KY that is
Posts: 34,092
"If you so much as look at my woman I will break this cue over your head."

"If you don't want your woman to be looked at, keep her at home in the basement."

And then I got my ass handed to me. I wasn't bleeding alone, though.

True Story™.
__________________


These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.
Gravdigr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 03:01 PM   #58
Gravdigr
The Un-Tuckian
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Central...KY that is
Posts: 34,092
Maybe there were a few more sentences involved.
__________________


These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.
Gravdigr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 03:05 PM   #59
Gravdigr
The Un-Tuckian
 
Join Date: Apr 2007
Location: South Central...KY that is
Posts: 34,092
Is it misconduct to stare?

'Cuz if you're a particularly attractive woman, I will stare right at your pretty.

And if you're the prettiest woman I've seen that day, it is not unheard of for me to tell you that.
__________________


These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.
Gravdigr is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2017, 05:28 PM   #60
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,492
Quote:
Originally Posted by Gravdigr View Post
Is it misconduct to stare?

.
Depends how long you hold the stare and if you drool.


Quote:
And if you're the prettiest woman I've seen that day, it is not unheard of for me to tell you that.
Depends on the context for that one. If, for example, the prettiest woman you've seen all day is the one bringing you your meal in a restaurant - don't tell her. If the prettiest woman you've seen all day is a total stranger at the train station with whom you've shared not one word - don't tell her.
__________________
Quote:
There's only so much punishment a man can take in pursuit of punani. - Sundae
http://sites.google.com/site/danispoetry/
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 08:46 PM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.