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Old 01-17-2018, 12:09 AM   #106
lumberjim
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint View Post
How do you keep sticking your fingers down someone's throat who is repeatedly letting you know they aren't into it? WHY would you?? Wouldn't you just NOT do that?? And if you did--wouldn't you be a piece of shit??

I heard that Ansari's career will be hurt because millennial women are a lot of his fan base and they don't like this story. Well guess what--millennials can *decide for themselves* that they *don't like someone's behavior* and they *don't like that person* It's. That. Simple.

Like, I'm sorry you're a creepy predator and people don't like creepy predators?? HaHa!! it doesn't work that way
I'm thinking she didn't effectively let him know she didn't like it, or changed her mind after about liking it..... Or the whole thing was a set up to get DanaC to write another million words about feminism.
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Old 01-17-2018, 06:58 AM   #107
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I reject the utter ƒuck out of the idea that we can't do better than discouraging things that are ALREADY ILLEGAL.

Like, really, in 2018, we can't make this a general goal? Too ambitious??
Why stop at women's respect? Let's go all the way and talk about respect for all. It's definitely not just a feminist issue! I've already talked about the male equivalent of sexual assault being physical assault. We've shared stories. We've shown it to be a massive problem. It would be great if we could convince people to stop physically assaulting males. It's something that is "ALREADY ILLEGAL" and we never even talk about it.

#MeToo I was physically assaulted so I am taking the tag for my OWN purposes.

What, is that offensive?

What, too general?

Wasn't the problem YOU PERSONALLY were hoping to address?

You ReJeCt the PrEmIsE?

I'm sure you now see, I don't get to do that, and you don't get to do that, because that is not how this works.
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Old 01-17-2018, 10:26 AM   #108
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I think it is clear and obvious that there is a massive, longstanding, global deficit in the levels of basic human decency and respect that is paid to women--specifically, and I think it's clear and obvious that the issue currently has traction and visibility, so now is the time to press that advantage and discuss it to the maximum possible extent. All the rest is blah, blah, blah. This is what's happening.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:02 AM   #109
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global deficit in the levels of basic human decency and respect that is paid to women
Oh great slogan. Every man in the world can nod and say good idea, but that applies to someone else, someone in those shithole countries, or the ragheads, Commies, etc, certainly not me. Generalities only work on paper.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:06 AM   #110
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Seems like the only thing worse than generalities are specifics. Specifics are rebuttal fodder.
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There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:18 AM   #111
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I think it is clear and obvious that there is a massive, longstanding, global deficit in the levels of basic human decency and respect period.

So why don't we make it about all assault?
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:41 AM   #112
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This is sounding a lot like Black Lives Matter vs. All Lives Matter.
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Old 01-17-2018, 11:44 AM   #113
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
So why don't we make it about all assault?
You're free to organize that.

What society is getting better at raising awareness of is what the victims of an injustice say are the issues they have with it, not what an unaffected person's opinion is of whether they're saying it wrong.

Nobody should stop you from organizing the thing that matters to you.

Everyone has a valid voice and experience, and if it resonates with other people, a 'support group' develops--this is an awesome thing happening, facilitated by technology. It's open to all.


There can also be a backlash. Sometimes retributive movements are conceived of to minimize other people's voices, rather than listening to them. Sometimes "all" is used to drown out an uncomfortable specific.
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There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio

Last edited by Flint; 01-17-2018 at 12:13 PM.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:18 PM   #114
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Mmm. Well #MeToo is hereby diluted in this thread, let's see how it goes in real life.
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:34 PM   #115
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I noticed.. you're saying that broadening #metoo from "sexual assault" to "respecting women" would dilute the message, and I'm saying that broadening #metoo from "sexual assault" to "all assault" would dilute the message.

Whereas actually, as it's not about us, whatever either one of us thinks is academic at best.
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expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 01-17-2018, 12:53 PM   #116
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that was my entire actual point ~ we are now on exactly the same page. i think
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Old 01-17-2018, 01:11 PM   #117
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Again that may be biological difference - or that men and women grow up with different signals and form different relationships with their bodies because of that. We develop different hang ups because we are subject to different assumptions and messages.
Well, this leads to the question that I suppose all of us realized was inevitable:

What do cross-cultural studies say about head?
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Old 01-17-2018, 02:43 PM   #118
Flint
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that was my entire actual point ~ we are now on exactly the same page. i think
Yeah, I think so.

Like, I guess, I hope you were being sarcastic --portraying a guy who wants to purposefully undermine a movement, with a counter "all" movement--and I took you literally?
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There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:33 PM   #119
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It was a supposition, a common approach to debate

I would love it if people found out that the male[-ish] equivalent of sexual assault is plain old assault, but I don't dare think I could sway the #MeToo movement that way, and I don't really want to. It should be a new movement.
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Old 01-17-2018, 03:38 PM   #120
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yes - a new movement. Men (and women) standing up and saying: let's stop the violence. Let's stop the appalling risk that most young men face at some point in their lives from, mainly, other men.

There are huge issues facing young men in particular. Suicide rates are tragically high - and so are injuries and deaths from violent assault.

But for these there are often a different set of dynamics involved than those at play in sexual misconduct It needs to be tackled but not necessarily in the same conversation .


We really need to stop treating this as a zero-sum game. And here's the thing - most women have men in their lives. Speak to any mum, sister or wife about the scourge of violence affecting men in our society and you will find they share your concern.


I actually do not see 'assault' as the male equivalent of sexual assault. Assault .... is assault. It affects both men and women - but men are more likely to suffer it than women (except in the home/ in the context of a relationship).

Sexual assault is sexual assault - it is suffered by men and women, but women are more likely to suffer it than men.

The triggers for violent assault are not necessarily the same as the triggers for sexual assault - they are often bourne of very different motivations and contexts.

I think Bruce made a really interesting point somewhere that - what marks most of these allegations of sexual misconduct is a power relationship, and since men are more often in a position of power over women than the other way around, men are the primary perpetrators. If more women were in positions of power or authority over men, we could well see an increase of women abusing that power in much the same way.

The primary distinction for me between the kinds of violent assault that many young men risk when they go out in the evening and the kind of assault women face sexually, is that one is brutal and impersonal while the other is much more intimate.

Setting aside stranger rape, and the masked man in the bushes, which are by far the rarest kinds of sexual assault, women are, in large numbers experiencing violence, threat, or simply a dehumanising form of predatory behaviour from men they are either intimate with, or economically subordinate to in some way.

Setting aside violence in the home, which is not the most common violence suffered by men, and which bears far more resemblance to the sexual assault/abuse/exploitation described above than to any other form of violence, men in large numbers experience violence, threat or intimidation from other men with whom they have neither an emotional connection nor economic relationship.

It is a disgrace that for many young men the streets are a dangerous place. It is also a disgrace that for many women the bedroom and boardroom are dangerous places.

They are two very different issues. They are not each other's gendered equivalent. And they impact differently. But they do overlap.

Here's the thing though - most violent assaults are carried out by men. Women assault men too, and other women, but most violent assaults, and certainly most serious violent assaults are carried out by men.

Most men who suffer violent assault suffer it at the hands of another man/men. Most men who suffer violent sexual assault or rape, suffer it at the hands of another man. Most women who suffer violent assault suffer it at the hands of a man, and most women who suffer sexual assault, suffer it at the hands of a man.

So - when women start kicking up a fuss about being abused by men, and a man says: yeah, but what about the violent assaults suffered by men? What is it exactly, that he wants to hear from women? That we care? Fuck yes, we care. My best friend and former partner, J, was beaten up by a gang of lads at a train station a few years ago. It was a horrible experience for him, it shook him to his core and everybody, me included was horrified. They were only in their teens. They'd been harrassing an elderly chap and J tried to intervene in a light and friendly tone and they just went fucking nuts.

That shit worries the hell out of me. It worries a lot of people.

Women saying to men 'please stop ignoring what we're saying and just assuming your needs outweigh any of ours up to and including bodily autonomy' is not the same thing as women saying 'we don't give a shit about any of the problems and risks faced by men'.
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Last edited by DanaC; 01-17-2018 at 04:17 PM.
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