personhood

henry quirk · 10-08-2019, 05:01 PM

Over in the Phliosphy Now Forum a recurring conversation is over the nature of 'person'.

What 'is' a person?

What are the qualities or characteristics of 'person'.

What makes a human being a person?

Why isn't -- for example -- a goldfish a person?

When does a human being become a person?

One fellow over there posted "Foetuses are no(t) "persons" until they are named and certified by live birth." which, as I said is 'one legitimate (and, in my view, flawed) way to look at personhood.'

So: dazzle me with insight & wisdom.

lumberjim · 10-08-2019, 05:16 PM

Person is a label applied from the outside. If you see someone as a person, they are a person. Only your criteria matter in that case. You may not have a structured list of characteristics they must meet. You might just need to feel some empathy toward them.

so .... a Person is someone you can relate to. For whatever reason.

It's really a meaningless adjective because the Object (of 'Personhood') is not in control of the distinction.

henry quirk · 10-08-2019, 05:30 PM

So: if I see myself, define myself, as 'person' it's meaningless?

lumberjim · 10-08-2019, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry quirk

So: if I see myself, define myself, as 'person' it's meaningless?

to everyone other than you, yes. You may see yourself as a person, but if I think you're a monster.... then to me....

henry quirk · 10-08-2019, 06:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lumberjim

to everyone other than you, yes. You may see yourself as a person, but if I think you're a monster.... then to me....

Well, you can see a campfire as a block of ice but that doesn't make the fire any less searing.

That is: your opinion doesn't overwrite reality.

So: is personhood intrinsic or bestowed (that seems to be the question between us)?

lumberjim · 10-08-2019, 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry quirk

Well, you can see a campfire as a block of ice but that doesn't make the fire any less searing.

That is: your opinion doesn't overwrite reality.

So: is personhood intrinsic or bestowed (that seems to be the question between us)?

I'm just saying that your use of the term person is subjective. It depends on the perspective of the observer. You could substitute the phrase self aware and be done with it.

If you're self aware, to you, you're a person. A being. If I see you as a monster or a sociopath, then to me, you're not.

It's just a shell game. The term is changeable in meaning depending on the way you use it.

Fun.

Griff · 10-09-2019, 06:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry quirk

So: is personhood intrinsic or bestowed (that seems to be the question between us)?

Some religious would say intrinsic, then they can drag you down the rabbit hole. No longer checking the religion box, I know my default has shifted some. That consciousness that is so hard to define is cumulative. You gain awareness over time as you gain insight into your own universe. There is no fixed point. We are left with others looking in and assigning personhood. If you are fortunate, you live here and now rather than say Nazi Germany. I work with aged and TBI folks now. Among them there is a desire to live as independently as they can, despite frailty. The fetus is unknowingly on the on-ramp to consciousness they are knowingly on the off-ramp. I love the question Henry, but I can't answer it.

Gravdigr · 10-08-2019, 05:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry quirk

When does a human being become a person?

I think it varies from state to state.

Otherwise, it"s when ya turn 18.

Undertoad · 10-08-2019, 05:48 PM

Personhood requires self-consciousness - being aware of ourselves, and in control of our actions; being able to reason and see why things happen, rather than just experiencing things.

henry quirk · 10-08-2019, 05:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Personhood requires self-consciousness - being aware of ourselves, and in control of our actions; being able to reason and see why things happen, rather than just experiencing things.

What about the comatose? It can be argued a comatose person isn't conscious on any level.

henry quirk · 10-08-2019, 06:13 PM

Don't get me wrong: I think you're on to sumthin' with this...

Quote:

Personhood requires self-consciousness - being aware of ourselves, and in control of our actions; being able to reason and see why things happen, rather than just experiencing things.

...but (again): 'What about the comatose? It can be argued a comatose person isn't conscious on any level.'

Gravdigr · 10-08-2019, 05:57 PM

But they encourage ya to talk to them...

Gravdigr · 10-08-2019, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gravdigr

But they encourage ya to talk to them...

Gravdigr · 10-08-2019, 05:58 PM

...like houseplants, now that I think about it.

Gravdigr · 10-08-2019, 05:58 PM

OMG!!!

Houseplants are persons!!!

View Poll Results: A human being is...
...bio-automation, organic machinery.	1	14.29%
...sumthin’ more than bio-automation, not only organic machinery.	6	85.71%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

10-08-2019, 05:01 PM	#1
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	personhood Over in the Phliosphy Now Forum a recurring conversation is over the nature of 'person'. What 'is' a person? What are the qualities or characteristics of 'person'. What makes a human being a person? Why isn't -- for example -- a goldfish a person? When does a human being become a person? One fellow over there posted "Foetuses are no(t) "persons" until they are named and certified by live birth." which, as I said is 'one legitimate (and, in my view, flawed) way to look at personhood.' So: dazzle me with insight & wisdom. __________________ like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...'

10-08-2019, 05:16 PM	#2
lumberjim I can hear my ears Join Date: Oct 2003 Posts: 25,571	Person is a label applied from the outside. If you see someone as a person, they are a person. Only your criteria matter in that case. You may not have a structured list of characteristics they must meet. You might just need to feel some empathy toward them. so .... a Person is someone you can relate to. For whatever reason. It's really a meaningless adjective because the Object (of 'Personhood') is not in control of the distinction. __________________ This body holding me reminds me of my own mortality Embrace this moment, remember We are eternal, all this pain is an illusion ~MJKeenan

10-08-2019, 05:30 PM	#3
henry quirk maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow Join Date: Jan 2009 Posts: 2,162	"Person is a label applied from the outside." So: if I see myself, define myself, as 'person' it's meaningless? __________________ like the other guy sez: 'not really back, blah-blah-blah...'

10-08-2019, 05:57 PM	#12
Gravdigr The Un-Tuckian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: South Central...KY that is Posts: 39,517	But they encourage ya to talk to them... __________________ These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.

10-08-2019, 05:48 PM	#9
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Personhood requires self-consciousness - being aware of ourselves, and in control of our actions; being able to reason and see why things happen, rather than just experiencing things.

10-08-2019, 05:58 PM	#14
Gravdigr The Un-Tuckian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: South Central...KY that is Posts: 39,517	...like houseplants, now that I think about it. __________________ These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.

10-08-2019, 05:58 PM	#15
Gravdigr The Un-Tuckian Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: South Central...KY that is Posts: 39,517	OMG!!! Houseplants are persons!!! __________________ These statements have not been evaluated by the FDA, EPA, FBI, DEA, CDC, or FDIC. These statements are not intended to diagnose, cause, treat, cure, or prevent any disease. If you feel you have been harmed/offended by, or, disagree with any of the above statements or images, please feel free to fuck right off.

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