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Old 08-12-2020, 01:32 PM   #46
Undertoad
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No need for quotes around a joke, it clearly is. I agree that it is bad for the everyone. I don't find it to be proof of anything. Do you have an example of something he floated as "a joke" that he did not receive pushback on and then implemented?
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:05 PM   #47
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threatened to you personally, at your doxxed home address, LIKE I AM, then I'm not super invested in your theories about who can or cannot stage a fascist takeover
This is a terribly regrettable incident

Downtown, they set an actual pig's head on fire and projected a large laser image on a building of a cop/pig with Xs over its eyes - and this was celebrated live by ~2000 people. If a death threat to you personally is a sign of ascending Fascism, do *those* death threats mean that Communism is ascendant, as some would have us believe?
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Old 08-12-2020, 02:44 PM   #48
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No need for quotes around a joke, it clearly is. I agree that it is bad for the everyone. I don't find it to be proof of anything. Do you have an example of something he floated as "a joke" that he did not receive pushback on and then implemented?
He has frequently floated pardons for his staff and associates as a joke* (after jokingly asking them to commit crimes), then actually followed through on a number of questionably-motivated pardons**, most especially Roger Stone.

*https://napavalleyregister.com/opini...5f2ad93dc.html

**https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List...y_Donald_Trump

(Apologies for not embedding the links, I'm on my phone and can't get the href tags to work right.)

Admittedly, it's not like he's the first President to give out transparent pardons. Clinton certainly did it, though he had the fake-propriety to only do it right before leaving office. And just like Ford pardoned Nixon, I feel relatively sure that Biden will pardon Trump for the things he's eventually convicted of, in the name of healing.
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Old 08-12-2020, 03:01 PM   #49
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If a death threat to you personally is a sign of ascending Fascism, do *those* death threats mean that Communism is ascendant, as some would have us believe?
Yes, of course. History is a series of rising tensions spilling over into violence in order to precipitate change. It's foolhardy to believe we're the exception to this-- the oldest story in the book™

I wish everyone would forget everything they learned in third grade civics, and quit treating America like some extremely are and special exception to the immutable laws that govern literally every other human civilization, ever.
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Old 08-12-2020, 04:58 PM   #50
Griff
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Good post though Clod, I think what will probably happen is not outright civil war but a division of the country with separate laws and structures. At first, states will vote to secede so Griff should choose the rural section of a solidly blue state. Over time, counties of those states will also divide, so NY is right out and it will have to be VT.

to sum up that is my theory
Unfortunately your theory has merit. This outcome creates a mess here and leaves China largely in charge of humanity's future maybe an unstoppable outcome but not great for folks who don't 100% buy in see Uighurs.

Anyway, I'm not sure I have the stomach for a state fully in the bag for the left, hence my original ask about a moderate rural area. This thread was largely triggered by a constant anti-science bias I was getting from local family. Nobody is immune from not following the facts but in the pandemic it felt more permanent to me than it should have. I got thinking about how anti-education my relatives appear and how their kids and our economy could suffer for it. I think we're all more than a little on edge and I know I fall in that pattern of putting thoughts in other's heads when I'm stressed out. I had a good conversation with a Trump supporting uncle today so it isn't hopeless which is where my head had gone.

I still want to move to the mountains though.
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Old 08-12-2020, 05:44 PM   #51
Undertoad
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Clod, floating pardons and then saying it was a joke is not the kind of joke we're talking about. Furthermore though, it seems to me the guy jokes about everything; which is reprehensible behavior from a POTUS, but it doesn't mean we get to consider eveything he jokes about as secret evidence of plans.

The thing is, in this case, it was the media that floated his refusal to leave office as fantasy fearbait. He often jokes about what the media says, and this behavior is rewarding for both of them; the media gets clicks and attention, and he gets to steal all the oxygen out of the room for any other topic or candidate.

One plain truth of the matter is this: all the actual power of the office is via the Constitution. If the court has determined that he has lost the election, and he does not voluntarily leave by January 21, 2021, no orders that he gives will be respected by anyone who has taken an oath to uphold the Constitution. The Secret Service will then remove him by force.
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:08 PM   #52
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Humor takes many forms.
I hope someone can give an instance where Donald Trump showed he understands any of them.
Just one funny thing that he intended to be.
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Old 08-12-2020, 07:31 PM   #53
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... The Secret Service will then remove him by force.
That would be disappointing. They should send the living former Presidents in to beat him up and drag him out... maybe a blanket party even.
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Old 08-13-2020, 10:16 AM   #54
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That won't be necessary, he's a stone coward.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:36 AM   #55
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what I and, i think, a lot of people are more scared of than trump declaring himself president for life and the institutions of government supporting him, or whatever, is trump insinuating the election is invalid, attempting to delay certification of the votes or otherwise interfere in the handover of power, and sparking a wave of partisan violence around the country.

No matter who "wins", at this point, a huge proportion of the country will not consider the results valid. If Biden appears to win narrowly, the right-wing who believed Trump's bullshit about widespread voter fraud and jewish-i-mean-socialist soros manipulation and unhinged qanon conspiracies are not going to consider that a valid result, and given that an increasing number of them are convinced that just about any member of government that isn't Trump is a baby-eating human-trafficking secret new world order (again, read: "jewish") enemy of america, that's a recipe for widespread violence.

Considering that:
1. tens of millions of people are on the knife-edge of homelessness and eviction, and that the government is unwilling or unable to provide meaningful relief there, meaning that there's a huge chance that hundreds of thousands of people could be living on the streets during a pandemic;
2. COVID infection rates seem poised to only climb and climb unless the government takes action to return to some kind of lockdown and prevent the spread of infection, meaning that this will all be happening against the backdrop of either lockdown or an ever-growing death toll;
3. while the protests over police violence are somewhat dying down, there's every chance of them sparking back up, which has a high likelihood of being met with yet more police violence once again, and worse, from yet more right-wing terror attacks targeting protestors (usually with cars, taking a page from daesh's book);
4. the partisan sides of such a possible conflict barely agree on the very basic facts of reality in so many cases - in a conflict between left-wing partisans who believe that the government is actively literally trying to kill people for corporate profit (by refusing to take pandemic control measures) and is sliding rapidly and possibly inexorably towards fascism, and right-wing partisans who think a deep state conspiracy to traffic children is using a fake pandemic and a rigged election to push trump out of office, well, its hard to come to common ground without even agreeing on basic reality;

it's easy to see why people are afraid about what comes next.
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Old 08-14-2020, 10:45 AM   #56
Griff
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There is this fantasy out here about secret universal Trump support, which is why Pete wants her Biden sign up. It is important for folks to know the other side exists right among them even if it might be a little dangerous.
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Old 08-14-2020, 12:13 PM   #57
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God-damned well put. All of this. Thank you for summarizing these things-- I'm too emotionally exhausted to think about any of this long enough to form complete sentences-- basically all I do is listen to classical music and avoid any form of news or social media.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ibby View Post
what I and, i think, a lot of people are more scared of than trump declaring himself president for life and the institutions of government supporting him, or whatever, is trump insinuating the election is invalid, attempting to delay certification of the votes or otherwise interfere in the handover of power, and sparking a wave of partisan violence around the country.

No matter who "wins", at this point, a huge proportion of the country will not consider the results valid. If Biden appears to win narrowly, the right-wing who believed Trump's bullshit about widespread voter fraud and jewish-i-mean-socialist soros manipulation and unhinged qanon conspiracies are not going to consider that a valid result, and given that an increasing number of them are convinced that just about any member of government that isn't Trump is a baby-eating human-trafficking secret new world order (again, read: "jewish") enemy of america, that's a recipe for widespread violence.

Considering that:
1. tens of millions of people are on the knife-edge of homelessness and eviction, and that the government is unwilling or unable to provide meaningful relief there, meaning that there's a huge chance that hundreds of thousands of people could be living on the streets during a pandemic;
2. COVID infection rates seem poised to only climb and climb unless the government takes action to return to some kind of lockdown and prevent the spread of infection, meaning that this will all be happening against the backdrop of either lockdown or an ever-growing death toll;
3. while the protests over police violence are somewhat dying down, there's every chance of them sparking back up, which has a high likelihood of being met with yet more police violence once again, and worse, from yet more right-wing terror attacks targeting protestors (usually with cars, taking a page from daesh's book);
4. the partisan sides of such a possible conflict barely agree on the very basic facts of reality in so many cases - in a conflict between left-wing partisans who believe that the government is actively literally trying to kill people for corporate profit (by refusing to take pandemic control measures) and is sliding rapidly and possibly inexorably towards fascism, and right-wing partisans who think a deep state conspiracy to traffic children is using a fake pandemic and a rigged election to push trump out of office, well, its hard to come to common ground without even agreeing on basic reality;

it's easy to see why people are afraid about what comes next.
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
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Old 08-14-2020, 01:10 PM   #58
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so to sum up our theory is he's continuously all of that level of ridiculousness, while at the same time capable of gimping the operation of the US Postal Service without people knowing
Without people knowing? He's straight-up bragged about holding up funding from the post office to block vote-by-mail.
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Old 08-14-2020, 03:43 PM   #59
Undertoad
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COVID infection rates seem poised to only climb and climb
Naw

When examining the numbers for the states, please use https://rt.live/ . For individual states the "Adjusted Positive Tests & Implied Infections" curve at the bottom. That shows what is actually happening.

The majority of states now have a decreasing infection rate...!

A wild number of variables at play here, but seasonality is going to remain a big one, as all the southern states rose at the same time (and now the western European states are having their second wave at the height of their summers) (and now Minnesota)

Meanwhile, NYC is at least 25% immune and went over an enormous mountain to get there, but has not seen a second wave. It's figured maybe this is enough herd immunity to keep it at bay, at the current level of restricted social distancing.
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Old 08-14-2020, 03:46 PM   #60
Undertoad
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I can't follow it - the latest is that it's some sort of dispute over whether the items should be first-class or bulk rate?

Meanwhile I did learn that number of items the USPS carried has dropped every year since 2006. Still, last year, the USPS processed 142.6 billion pieces of mail.

With a flood of election year ballots, that could increase to 142.7 billion this year.

How much additional funding do they need?
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