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Old 09-12-2007, 05:15 PM   #31
lookout123
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I don't believe I'm all that special, so I don't believe I'm the only person who tries to take care of the people around me. All that I'm aware of falls under what I consider my responsibility. So if I do that, and you take care of those you can help around you, and bruce helps those around him, and UT... see where I'm going here?

I'm not saying we should trash the safety net programs, I'm just saying that we don't need a government program to be big brother for every damn thing.
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:24 PM   #32
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The people closest to the problem are the best to help because they know precisely what sort of help is needed and what sort is productive.
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:27 PM   #33
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So if I do that, and you take care of those you can help around you, and bruce helps those around him, and UT... see where I'm going here?
Unfortunately not everybody is willing to help the person next to them. Not every person is surrounded by people who will help them. The world is full of people who will exploit and people who will be exploited. It's full of people who are resolutely blind to the suffering of people living mere metres from them and it's full of people who suffer poverty and fear on the doorsteps of people who do not see them.

We used to have a society in Britain, where help was something individuals offered and individuals sought. Not enough individuals offered and far too many had to seek. The protections our society has were hard fought for by people who had been cut out of the big cake and left eating scraps.

Poverty, unemployment, health inequalities, social exclusion. These things are too big to be left to the vagaries of individuals' good will. The reason so many people in my country fought to achieve those safety nets is that the system of gentle benevolence was really a tacit acceptance of inequality and brutal exploitation.
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Old 09-12-2007, 05:52 PM   #34
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Originally Posted by lookout123 View Post
I don't believe I'm all that special, so I don't believe I'm the only person who tries to take care of the people around me. All that I'm aware of falls under what I consider my responsibility. So if I do that, and you take care of those you can help around you, and bruce helps those around him, and UT... see where I'm going here?

I'm not saying we should trash the safety net programs, I'm just saying that we don't need a government program to be big brother for every damn thing.
Emphasis mine. How many poor black families are you around, and do you help them? I'm just saying that we tend to live with people who are like ourselves, and we help people who our like ourselves. I'm guilty of the same thing. A couple of years ago, our community made a huge effort and investment (all donations) to build a new athletic field for ourselves. This is a municipality that already had 5 or 6 fields for the lily-white middle class suburban kids to use . The folks involved would have died rather than give another "handout to the N***ers in Chester" (the nearest urban / minority area).
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:28 PM   #35
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Maybe because they see the facilities in Chester, Camden and Philly, going to hell in a handbasket. Neglected, abandoned to junkies and thugs, broken glass and trash. If the people the facilities are for, won't take care of them, how can you convince people to provide more facilities?
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:34 PM   #36
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I think welfare states are just a natural progression in sociological advancement. Once a decent standard of living is established in the middle class, a push towards a welfare state seems almost inevitable except by major control by state.
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Old 09-12-2007, 07:51 PM   #37
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How many poor black families are you around, and do you help them?
So if the person I help this week is not black, that makes them somehow not important on the "needs help" chart? Give me a break. First of all, not all people who need help are black. second, not all black people live in one neighborhood that no on else goes too. third, are all black people poor? If not, then possibly those who do need help will also be receiving help from those in there network, area of influence, whatever you want to call it.

In my area, I'm surrounded by a lot of mexicans. Yep, I help the ones I can. Sometimes I even leave some of the steak around the bone before I throw it at them from the window of my speeding SUV on my way back to my lilly white neighborhood.

The point is help those you see around you and do what you can.
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Old 09-12-2007, 11:02 PM   #38
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The protections our society has were hard fought for by people who had been cut out of the big cake and left eating scraps.
This particular rational is complete bullshit. I really mean that, there is no 'cake' or 'pie' or whatever other pastry the metaphor people have on the brain. We do not line up for our ration of wealth, we are not just given anything. If I have more then you 99.9% of the time I did more then you and planned better then you, the iota's worth left had dumb luck.
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Old 09-13-2007, 03:11 AM   #39
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This particular rational is complete bullshit. I really mean that, there is no 'cake' or 'pie' or whatever other pastry the metaphor people have on the brain. We do not line up for our ration of wealth, we are not just given anything. If I have more then you 99.9% of the time I did more then you and planned better then you, the iota's worth left had dumb luck.
9th, the battles I was referring to took place in the 19th and early 20th century, when Britain followed a laissez faire approach to capitalism. I am referring to a time when a very small class of industrialists controlled had a strangelhold on economic power and the mass of the working classes lived in slums, worked in the 'dark satanic mills' of the cities and were forced to let their children work in dangerous jobs in the mines and mills. The working class fought hard for protection, for a fair wage, for decent working conditions. They had to fight for these things because they were being treated by their employers as if they were little more than dumb beasts.

The fact that a small class of people had sole access to finance, to the vote, to a decent education, to a childhood without working in dangerous conditions, does not mean that they did more or planned better. The system at the time did not allow for social mobility.

Every single protection that the working classes ever gained was fought for and fought for hard. Laws governing safety at work? Fought for against the wishes of the employer-class. A fair day's pay for a fair day's work? Fought for against the wishes of the employer-class. Legislation against children working? Fought for against the wishes of the employer-class. Laws governing minimum safety and hygiene standards in housing? Fought for against the wishes of the employer and landlord-class. The right to unionise? Fought for against the wishes of the employer-class and the political elite. Old age pension? Fought for, and fought for fucking hard by a class of people who were used to working until they dropped.

I find it interesting that you relate most strongly to that employer class. You relate to the minority who controlled the entire economy rather than the majority who worked in it. Me? I'm under no such illusion. I am a workingclass woman from Salford, if I'd have been born 150 years earlier, I would have lived in a slum, most likely with 6 people to a bedroom. I would have been working by the time I was 7 in a dangerous job with a very high risk of injury and mutilation. At best I may have been 'in service' from the age of 10, working for a wealthy family. Me and my entire family would have worked 12 hours a day for just enough to eat and with no hope of ever changing and not one of us would have had the right to vote. Meanwhile those who owned the mills and factories would have experienced vast wealth and controlled the political system.

I am able to live the life I live now, with the opportunities I have now and the protections that prevent my exploitation because my forefathers (and mothers) fought for them. I would also posit that you are able to live the life you live and have the protections you have, because your forefathers fought for them.

Last edited by DanaC; 09-13-2007 at 03:32 AM.
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Old 09-13-2007, 07:55 AM   #40
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Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Maybe because they see the facilities in Chester, Camden and Philly, going to hell in a handbasket. Neglected, abandoned to junkies and thugs, broken glass and trash. If the people the facilities are for, won't take care of them, how can you convince people to provide more facilities?
Did I say give them "facilities"?
Read Luke 15, 11-32

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Originally Posted by lookout123 View Post
So if the person I help this week is not black, that makes them somehow not important on the "needs help" chart? Give me a break. First of all, not all people who need help are black. second, not all black people live in one neighborhood that no on else goes too. third, are all black people poor? If not, then possibly those who do need help will also be receiving help from those in there network, area of influence, whatever you want to call it.
I don't think I said any of what you've read into my post. You said that you try
Quote:
to take care of the people around me
and my point is that if you are white and middle class, and live in the suburbs, you are not "around" the TYPICAL person who needs help. If you are middle class and live in suburbs, you probably don't need help. If you need help, you probably are not middle class and probably don't live in the suburbs. I don't think I insinuated anything more.

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Originally Posted by lookout123 View Post
In my area, I'm surrounded by a lot of mexicans. Yep, I help the ones I can. Sometimes I even leave some of the steak around the bone before I throw it at them from the window of my speeding SUV on my way back to my lilly white neighborhood.
Even after they pick your cotton all day? Wow, what a generous fellow you are.

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Originally Posted by lookout123 View Post
The point is help those you see around you and do what you can.
"Around you" being the key. After Katrina, I donated to the Bush-Clinton Katrina Fund. I am not "around" New Orleans. I could not go to New Orleans to help, or to take a car load of supplies. I did not know anyone in New Orleans to send a check to. How would I help them, using your philosophy?

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Originally Posted by 9th Engineer View Post
This particular rational is complete bullshit. I really mean that, there is no 'cake' or 'pie' or whatever other pastry the metaphor people have on the brain. We do not line up for our ration of wealth, we are not just given anything. If I have more then you 99.9% of the time I did more then you and planned better then you, the iota's worth left had dumb luck.
Wealthy parent "give" their children a huge slice of "pie", "cake", and filet mignon. Having good healthcare, nutrition, two parents, modern conveniences, a safe neighborhood to live in, a quality education, tutoring when needed, all give a child a great advantage over those kids who live in poverty. Even nice clothing and teeth straightened by braces give a candidate a better chance of getting a high-paying job.
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Old 09-13-2007, 08:02 AM   #41
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Originally Posted by Spexxvet View Post
..
and my point is that if you are white and middle class, and live in the suburbs, you are not "around" the TYPICAL person who needs help. If you are middle class and live in suburbs, you probably don't need help. If you need help, you probably are not middle class and probably don't live in the suburbs. I don't think I insinuated anything more.
...
Oh, and if you live around those who need help, you probably don't have means to help them.
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Old 09-13-2007, 10:59 AM   #42
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Gosh. In this deeply fractured society, it is now an option to believe that the other side is not just incorrect, not just wrong, not even just stupid, but actually broken.

Believe what you want. And then get ready for the twister.

We can't survive like this. We can't function like this. We can't live our lives believing that everybody else is a broken, sick fuck. It's not gonna work. We can't educate our children, we can't defend ourselves from enemies, we can't help the unfortunate.

Yesterday we had a study showing that almost all adult men avoid lost, crying children in malls. Why: they expect they will be charged with being a pedophile.

We simply can't go on like this. It won't end well.

The people who believe differently than you are perfectly normal people. Someday, you may need to ask them for help. What will be the result? Will they help you? Someday, they may ask you for help. Will you help them?

How are we going to come together? Especially if there comes a time when we really need to?
Thoughts like these tend to fly right under our level of awarness to even put them into words. I am impressed. Painful truths are mostly stuffed and we go on our way apathetic because we don't know how to change it. Especially as older people die out the younger people won't know there was even a difference?

Perhaps those old movies and shows that seem lame to young folk now will become social a social commentary one day. The'll be studied in college just to get a glimpse of social norms that are not in practice any longer?

good thoughts UT.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:17 AM   #43
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The problem is not in recognition that people need help, the problem is in what differing groups propose as the solution. Those with hard earned wealth are against redistribution of their wealth to fix social problems which are often a bottomless pit of revolving door handouts. Those who are Uber wealthly often give thousands to this charity or that charity and often can make a difference in peoples lives, some do, some don't. Those who are in the middle who don't have much to give want those who have lots to give it up to cause "XYZ" because they (in the middle) think people with money should take care of those without. And so the rub continues.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:30 AM   #44
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
Unfortunately not everybody is willing to help the person next to them. Not every person is surrounded by people who will help them. The world is full of people who will exploit and people who will be exploited. It's full of people who are resolutely blind to the suffering of people living mere metres from them and it's full of people who suffer poverty and fear on the doorsteps of people who do not see them.

We used to have a society in Britain, where help was something individuals offered and individuals sought. Not enough individuals offered and far too many had to seek. The protections our society has were hard fought for by people who had been cut out of the big cake and left eating scraps.

Poverty, unemployment, health inequalities, social exclusion. These things are too big to be left to the vagaries of individuals' good will. The reason so many people in my country fought to achieve those safety nets is that the system of gentle benevolence was really a tacit acceptance of inequality and brutal exploitation.
Another Anecdote c/o Cicero:
Monday I went for my usual cup of coffee and saw from a distance that there was an irregular person sitting in my usual area. Everyone else that usually hangs out in that area went somewhere else to sit, because that person- you could tell from a distance- was indigent, looked like he was having a hard time, and might cast a negative spell on their morning. I was the only person to sit in my usual spot near this person, and the look in his eyes said he was incredibly sad and defeated.Like he was dying. Not only did no one go out of their way for someone so down-trodden. They refused to be anywhere near him as some sort of social darwinism,denial, or discrimination. I not knowing what do again in the face of someone so helpless, gave him some money hoping that at least an act of kindness would cast some light.He had shoes on like had just gotten out of a hospital. It's true- when people are really suffering in everyone's face- unless they are of a proper status- they are not only not taken care of- they are avoided. Like being 10 feet from it might hurt them......Wouldn't even get close enough to shake a stick at.

The amount of evasion that I run into is really worse than I'd usually admit.
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Old 09-13-2007, 11:36 AM   #45
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but someone did help him. You.
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