The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Home Base

Home Base A starting point, and place for threads don't seem to belong anywhere else

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 09-13-2007, 01:04 PM   #91
Flint
Libturd Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Coastal Elite
Posts: 12,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint View Post
I don't see the distinction. You're citing the strong feelings you have, about a situation you have faced personally, as the differentating factor. It isn't. Since I'm not in a wheelchair, I don't have a peanut allergy, and I don't have asthma; I see all these situations equally. Fairly. Without bias.
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage View Post
Nothing I've said recently has mentioned feelings.
Okay, bad choice of words. But now that I've mentioned it, do you have a response?
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:22 PM   #92
rkzenrage
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I really don't have feelings about the smoking issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other as far as being able to shop or eat (I don't smoke in my home or when I eat anyway. I only smoke a pipe or cigar a few times a week and prefer to have my environments smoke free unless it is a bar or smoke shop. The only emotion I have attached to that is that the assault on freedom worries me and makes me defensive... it leads to other things.
I do not see making places open for people who are in wheelchairs (the ibot is a red herring and off-topic, it is not available to 99.999% of those whom are disabled who can afford it and is not covered by any insurance company) is not giving those people a choice to choose to shop there or not.
How does it make me feel, frustrated and marginalized.
Read anything by anyone who lived before Jim Crow laws were removed and the culture of that mind-set changed and that is exactly how it makes me feel.
Once in the store I don't care if all the isles/tables/etc, are chair width apart if they are accommodating.
But, even in accessible stores it is not unusual to be treated like a nuisance before anyone even talks to you, or worse like a child (people will often give people in chairs candy or pat us on the head and talk to us like children then not give us the same service they give any other adult).
How would it make you feel to be told "we don't have time to help you (your kind) you are going to have to go somewhere else" because they choose to exclude you?
It is humiliating and frustrating because there is NO reason for it and NO excuse for it.
Again I don't want to hear the bullshit about subliminal fears of contagion or being faced with one's own mortality because that is a cop-out and bull-shit.

When I was vegan for a long time I developed a bad reaction to animal protean, though it was not deadly it was very sensitive.
I was often lied to about the contents of soup and bread... it is difficult and for those this kind of thing is deadly for (I became vegan because my wife did develop a deadly allergy to animal protean because of pituitary tumor) the guidelines need to be far more stringent.
But, I don't think peanuts need to be banned from public.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:47 PM   #93
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,449
Quote:
A place that is built with a barrier to a specific group of people is an ENTIRELY different thing... it is not only the SAME as the Jim Crow signs stating "Whites Only" it is worse because a black or Asian could CHOOSE to ignore the sign and enter the establishment anyway, as they did during the civil rights (for able-bodied only) fight.
Ohhh.....I see...you are more discriminated against than African Americans under Jim Crow laws. Okay.

Quote:
It is humiliating and frustrating because there is NO reason for it and NO excuse for it.
You are absolutely right there is no excuse for it.


I certainly wouldn't expect any store to stop selling peanut products, nor would I shut down private businesses that chose to allow smoking. I just took issue with the idea that the people who suffer with the life threatening conditions we've spoken of in this thread, are presented with a choice that is in reality no choice and may have a different perspective; one which does not deserve to be dismissed out of hand.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:48 PM   #94
Flint
Libturd Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Coastal Elite
Posts: 12,227
Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the smoking issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...
Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the wheelchair issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...
Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the peanut issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:55 PM   #95
Flint
Libturd Snowflake
 
Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Coastal Elite
Posts: 12,227
Quote:
Originally Posted by the wheelchair guy
How does it make me feel, frustrated and marginalized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the asthma guy
How does it make me feel, frustrated and marginalized.
Quote:
Originally Posted by the peanut guy
How does it make me feel, frustrated and marginalized.
Why is the wheelchair guy the only one whose feelings matter?
__________________
******************
There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio
Flint is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:55 PM   #96
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 18,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage
I did not know that.
Are you suggesting peanuts be outlawed or people be allowed special treatment like separation or able to say "I am peanut allergic so I need clean utensils"?
There are people who are allergic to the sun.
No, I'm merely saying that I agree with the analogies others have put forth in this thread: having a severe peanut allergy in a restaurant that serves peanuts all over the table is equivalent to that same restaurant not having a wheelchair ramp.

Is it irritating? Yes. Is it wrong? On a personal level, it isn't the decision I would make if it were my restaurant, but I don't feel it's bad enough to take legislative action against. Like you said, by not going in, you vote with your dollars and the company will in theory make the most economic decision.
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:57 PM   #97
rkzenrage
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I don't agree, again, though it would be stupid, they can choose to eat there.
It is not a comparison on any level.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 01:59 PM   #98
rkzenrage
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the smoking issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...

Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the wheelchair issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...

Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the peanut issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...
All out of context.
The smoking issue does not inhibit anyone. They CAN go to the stores.
You are really having a hard time with the difference between can and can't huh?
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 02:03 PM   #99
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 18,826
Quote:
Originally Posted by rkzenrage
I don't agree, again, though it would be stupid, they can choose to eat there.
Wasn't it already established that you could throw yourself forward out of your wheelchair and crawl into the store? It would just be really stupid and dangerous for your health.
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 02:04 PM   #100
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,449
I can physically walk into a room filled with poisonous gas.
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 02:07 PM   #101
rkzenrage
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Quote:
Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the smoking issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...

Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the wheelchair issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...

Quote:
I really don't have feelings about the peanut issue, it does not inhibit me one way or the other...
Also, you asked me what my feelings were.
They are irrelevant to this discussion.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
Wasn't it already established that you could throw yourself forward out of your wheelchair and crawl into the store? It would just be really stupid and dangerous for your health.
And I would not be able to open the door, enter and eat.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 02:12 PM   #102
DanaC
We have to go back, Kate!
 
Join Date: Apr 2004
Location: Yorkshire
Posts: 25,449
rk you have argued yourself into a position of presenting your health and disability in competition with other disabling conditions. Is that really what you want?
.


(eta)

You insist that if anybody can walk a short distance, regardless of the effect of that exercise on their health (e.g somebody with severe respiratory problems or very severe rheumatoid arthritis) they shouldn't use the disabled parking spaces, thereby denying the protections you consider fair for someone who uses a wheelchair. You similarly deny people with highly disabling conditions the protections you consider are fair for someone in a wheelchair
DanaC is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 02:27 PM   #103
rkzenrage
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
I never said short distance. In fact I stated that if they are just walking in to use a chair or cart provided by the store that is not what I am talking about.
I said if they are walking the entire store they can walk the extra spaces to their car. You misquoted me or did not read it, s-ok it is a hobby here.
My main argument is that those without lifts should not be able to use the spaces with loading zones.
I am not talking about protection I am talking about access.
Two entirely separate topics.
  Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 03:06 PM   #104
9th Engineer
Bioengineer and aspiring lawer
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Pittsburgh
Posts: 872
Lets go back to the Five Guys example (we have one on campus so I know what the peanut thing is about). We have Peanut Allergy Guy (PAG), and Wheelchair Bound Guy (WBG). The store has steps with no ramp and both patrons and cooks are eating some amount of peanuts. PAG cannot enter the store because of the concentration of airborne peanut contaminants, and can't eat the food even if someone goes in and gets it for him because of the moderate possibility of peanut oil being transfered to some part of his food at some point (cook picking up the bun, etc). WBG cannot enter the building because of the lack of a ramp but could eat something through take-out.

````````````````| WBG | PAG |
-----------------------------------
Can enter building`| no | no |
-----------------------------------
Can eat food`````| yes | no |
-----------------------------------


I'll tell you the truth rk. The case against the restaurant is the same as the case against the perfume department, the only difference is that you are willing to be inconvenienced by one and not the other. You bring me one, I'd use it to slam both with infractions. And absolutely you could take to court a restaurant who's air quality caused someone to go into respiratory arrest or something equivalent. BBQ's will need to maintain a certain level of air cleanliness and the 'smoky' atmosphere will be a thing of the past.

Law 101 man
__________________
The most valuable renewable resource is stupidity.

Last edited by 9th Engineer; 09-13-2007 at 03:07 PM. Reason: spaces didn't hold the graph in place :(
9th Engineer is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 09-13-2007, 03:10 PM   #105
rkzenrage
Guest
 
Posts: n/a
Then you think peanuts should be illegal?
  Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 05:20 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2018, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.