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Old 03-07-2020, 08:46 PM   #601
xoxoxoBruce
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Putin needs a cold war, an enemy he can blame for any unpopular moves and shortages at home.
Also to convince as many leaders between him and the Mediterranean as possible that he is from their hood, and will always be close by to be their savior not us. He can coerce them into thinking my friend's enemy is my enemy, when Trump blusters.
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Old 03-13-2020, 09:18 PM   #602
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
It's fine. Trump doesn't parse the word "entitlements" like vox.com does; and in the context of the conversation, he doesn't parse it at all, before he's on to his answer.

Everybody who was watching understood that, too.

See, the game where Trump's words are carefully parsed for the least charitable take is a LOSING game. Here's the secret, if you want to know how Trump's supporters listen to the interview:

Stop parsing words and just listen for the emotional appeal.

I know how much you enjoy parsing, and how much the media enjoys it. You get to read vox.com articles and get your dopamine fix. The media gets their "Trump bump" of clicks and ratings. It seems like winning. But the words are not the important part. Pay attention to the emotions. The emotions of vox.com are negative, loser emotions. The emotions of Donald Trump are winner emotions.

Furthermore, you should parse a conversation like a conversation, and a joke like a joke, if you want to understand. That's the part of Trump that is immediately appealing; that's how he expects to be parsed. Old-school politicians speak slowly, carefully, measured, studied, stiff and teleprompted, facts at the ready, so that nothing they can say can be parsed incorrectly. The problem is, nobody in our everyday world talks like that. If they did, we wouldn't trust them!

Hey UT, I just want to say this at the outset.

Parsing is reading for comprehension, for understanding. It's not a bad thing, despite Trump's epic badness at doing it. Words do matter, and he murders them on the daily.

Now, having parried your attack on the value of "parsing", let's talk about his most recent failures to communicate.

How about President Trump's recent, teleprompted address from the Oval Office. (The urge to start this next sentence with "how do you explain..." is strong but horribly unfair. You obviously have opinions, which I respect, but I know you can't explain him. I won't ask you to.) I'll just point out that (*again*) he said things that were just plain wrong. His wrong statements caused immediate trouble, not like "Covfeve". It is ABSURD of him to say the things he says.

I have opinions too about why he talks like this. He's out of his depth in this role. There are aspects about it that he likes, the power, there's a lot of power, the trappings and the attention, craptons of that too. But there is also responsibility to do the work--ALL THE WORK. And he just can't do it. And his other character flaws, like valuing loyalty over everything else, including competence, prevent--no, cripple--him in his attempts to delegate important responsibilities he won't/can't/is oblivious to execute himself.

And the words, jfc, the words just won't stop. He's absurd, he's a clown.

Did you see his performance at the CDC earlier this week? What was the "emotional appeal" of “As of right now and yesterday, anybody that needs a test [can have one], that’s the important thing, and the tests are all perfect, like the letter was perfect, the transcription was perfect.” The emotional impact I feel is one being in the presence of someone who's relentless self-promotion shines a spotlight on his insecurity. I feel like we should be talking about medical facts and wtf does his letter his call, have to do with fuckall?

He also talked about how his uncle was a super genius and that that's probably why all the doctors at the CDC asked him in surprise about how he knows so much about this?!?!? Here's a quote, so I'm not just putting words in his mouth. “I like this stuff. I really get it. People are surprised that I understand it. Every one of these doctors say, ‘How do you know so much about this?’ Maybe I have a natural ability. Maybe I should’ve done that instead of running for president.” Emotional impact: shock, fear, jesus take the wheel, this is the sound of someone who can't stop boasting.

His comments are absurd on their face. This is not the time for absurdity, he already rsvp'ed "no" to the White House Correspondents' Dinner. That's where he should be clowning and self deprecating. Right now, he's on the fucking job. But he's not working.
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Old 03-13-2020, 09:59 PM   #603
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
snip--
(What's worse is, post-modernism then suggests that everyone's truth is true, because everything is relative, and then we wind up in a hole that deeper than we dug.)
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Originally Posted by BigV View Post
Trump is the victim (this time) of "post-modernism"?
--snip
Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
I cannot fathom how you might have gotten this conclusion out of my post.
I am not familiar with "post-modernism", but it's clear that by your description, it's kind of bullshit. And Kellyanne Conway deserves credit in my mind for flinging it into our public discourse when she talked about "alternative facts". Her talk then was bullshit. The idea of "alternative facts" is bullshit. A fact is just one thing, if it's more than one thing, it's not a fact.

...


pausing for casuistry


....

Ok, we good?

UT, you're an apologist for President Trump, free country, takes all types, agree to disagree, etc etc. I hold no animus toward you. I consider you a friend. But when you float the idea that truth and facts and words are more malleable and less concrete than back in the pre-modernist day, you give the reader, and maybe yourself, some kind of cover, a fig leaf to cover President Trump's shame. The shame is there, even if you cover your ears and eyes with the fig leaf. Lord knows the aren't enough fig leaves in the world to cover his absurdity.
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Old 03-13-2020, 10:33 PM   #604
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How about President Trump's recent, teleprompted address from the Oval Office.
Yeah, how about that? I absolutely knew you'd ask about that.

It was a written, teleprompted speech and is therefore entirely appropriate for parsing the shit out of.

What I was objecting to earlier was parsing the shit out of conversational, colloquial speech and even jokes.
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Old 03-13-2020, 10:34 PM   #605
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Right.

Like the CDC presser. Your thoughts are welcome.

Not to mention the fact that he murdered the words in the Oval Office presentation.
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Old 03-13-2020, 10:43 PM   #606
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I am not familiar with "post-modernism"
No shit

Quote:
UT, you're an apologist for President Trump
You don't actually get me at all. It's fine.
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Old 03-13-2020, 10:47 PM   #607
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like I said
Quote:
free country, takes all types, agree to disagree, etc etc.
Should I not be trying to parse your words and look for the emotional appeal instead to gain understanding?

Help a brother out, eh?

edited to add:

anyone who tries to defend or justify or explain President Trump's straight-up bizarre remarks has been dealt a shit hand. He is not living up to my standards for performance in the office, he's not even living up to my standards for communicating in English. My standards. But his words affect more than just me. If it wasn't so serious, it'd be comedy.
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Last edited by BigV; 03-13-2020 at 10:51 PM. Reason: I'm editing now--ok, edits done.
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Old 03-13-2020, 10:53 PM   #608
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You're looking for a fight and I'm so not interested in that.
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Old 03-14-2020, 06:13 PM   #609
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
It was a written, teleprompted speech and is therefore entirely appropriate for parsing the shit out of.
So why did he get so many things wrong? He said trade between Europe and American would halt. Then adults from his administration corrected that.

He said all passenger travel between Europe and America would halt. Then adults from his administration said that would not apply to American citizens.

He could not even be honest when reading from a teleprompter?

He ignored a million+ missing test kits. And then later said (a direct quote when pressed by an NBC reporter) that he would not take responsibility for that. What adult does not see a glaring irresponsible mental state?

Eventually one must admit that this president lies daily. Since that is what he did routinely even 30 years ago - as so often reported in NYC local news. We are not talking about a president who works for America, American allies, or the advancement of mankind. His entire life has only been about advancing The Don at the expense of all others. That was obvious even decades ago.

He can murder someone on Fifth Ave and still get elected. He knows how easily some can be brainwashed. That was him even saying so.

He cannot take responsibility. And said so. Meanwhile Truman said "the buck stops here". Where is here? Extremists do not hear - or understand.

Responsibility must lie on those evil Mexican, immigrants, or slanted eye people who are American allies. We should blame them. Since hate can get a president reelected.

No fight. Only facts. Same facts said Fukushima nuclear reactors had melted down. Which was also denied by ignoring facts. Show me one fact that says Trump is presidential material. Clearly not a fight. Facts that an adult would discuss using logic from a pre-frontal cortex.

UT, others requested facts to support your beliefs. Post them and not just empty denials. Two glaring lies cited in a first two paragraphs. Please explain why that is a responsible leader. Would Lincoln have lied like that?

I hear of legislation in Congress to print a $101 counterfeit dollar bill with Trump's picture on it. To cut costs, he intends to have them printed by his good friend Kim of N Korea. It that true or another rumor promoted by his swampland supporters?

Last edited by tw; 03-14-2020 at 06:25 PM.
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Old 04-28-2020, 09:07 PM   #610
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The President suggested that there's a chance that injecting disinfectant will do a number on the virus, especially in the lungs, knocks it out in like a minute.

The whole world that saw and heard his remarks was horrified. Even people dumb enough to ingest disinfectant called the health department to fact check what they'd heard.

Then he said he was being sarcastic. Uh huh, riiiiiight. For the record, that was sarcasm.

Then in a fit of pique at being unable to flush this turd down the memory hole, he said he was gonna stop doing these <\goverment funded campaign performances coronavirus response press briefings because the press was asking too many hostile questions. GO GO GO FREE PRESS! #EPICFLOUNCE

But, it was too good to be true. His love of free press, I mean free media coverage compelled him back to the podium and the absurdity continues.

******

How about a quick informal poll? Anyone here think he was being sarcastic at the time he made his remarks about injecting disinfectant? Please post below.
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Old 04-28-2020, 09:25 PM   #611
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JFC, his absurdity is contagious. The Vice President is infected too.

Pence recently traveled to The Mayo Clinic, but did not wear a mask during his visit, despite being informed well in advance of his visit that everyone in the hospital is to wear a mask to reduce the spread of the coronavirus. Pence said that he did not wear a mask because
Quote:
Originally Posted by VP Pence
"I thought it'd be a good opportunity for me to be here, to be able to speak to these researchers, these incredible health care personnel, and look them in the eye and say thank you."
It is absurd to suggest that wearing a mask inhibits one's ability to do what he said he wanted to do. What a liar.

Even Trump was more honest (what with no filter and all) by saying he just doesn't see it for himself.

The larger issue is the appearance of the reality that both of these men are not leading by example and at a minimum, missing an opportunity do so. Another failure of leadership.
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Old 04-28-2020, 10:39 PM   #612
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You have the option of running for office yourself to set the example; your amiable phiz would make a gift for the nation's cartoonists, no?
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Old 04-28-2020, 11:21 PM   #613
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… How about a quick informal poll? Anyone here think he was being sarcastic at the time he made his remarks about injecting disinfectant? Please post below.
Trump is as inarticulate as all get out. It's a pain to listen to him speak and try to figure out what it is he's actually trying to communicate.

I think he was serious about the concept he was trying to present: Introducing something with known topical antiviral properties into the body.

I think it was naive of him to use the words inject and disinfectant, even if sarcastically, and not realize the general public would associate that with using something like Clorox or Lysol for needle injection.

Can we use a topical disinfectant for injection into the body? Yes, we do that. We can use vinegar (acetic acid), a disinfectant, topically in ear canals to treat infection. We also inject it into the bladder through a catheter to treat infection there. The basic premise is viable.

Trump, not having an aptitude for medicine, doesn't understand how this premise is limited in scope of application (he referenced the lungs) and the microorganisms it's used against (primarily bacteria).
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:23 AM   #614
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You have the option of running for office yourself to set the example; your amiable phiz would make a gift for the nation's cartoonists, no?
So unless someone is prepared to run for the highest office, they shouldn't complain or criticise the current holders of said office?
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Old 04-29-2020, 03:26 AM   #615
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Trump is as inarticulate as all get out. It's a pain to listen to him speak and try to figure out what it is he's actually trying to communicate.

I think he was serious about the concept he was trying to present: Introducing something with known topical antiviral properties into the body.

I think it was naive of him to use the words inject and disinfectant, even if sarcastically, and not realize the general public would associate that with using something like Clorox or Lysol for needle injection.

Can we use a topical disinfectant for injection into the body? Yes, we do that. We can use vinegar (acetic acid), a disinfectant, topically in ear canals to treat infection. We also inject it into the bladder through a catheter to treat infection there. The basic premise is viable.

Trump, not having an aptitude for medicine, doesn't understand how this premise is limited in scope of application (he referenced the lungs) and the microorganisms it's used against (primarily bacteria).
All perfectly understandable - if he was some Joe in a pub espousing this shit to his mates: he is the President of the USA - his words carry weight in the world and have an impact. This is life and death stuff. He should stfu with his half understood musings and let the Doctors lead.

he never stops talking about fake news, but he is one of the prime vectors for misinformation in the world today
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