Atheists Unite

[limey]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

I used to though. I used to say that I don't believe in man's god, but how on earth could I possible know that there isn't some kind of creator? Now I just don't care. If my mind cant go there, then whats the point.

This.
Which I think is best described by agnostic?

[DanaC]

I've been an atheist since I was 14 years old.

Initially I think I was probably an agnostic. I held out the notion that there might be a god of some sort.

Then I started reading science books and decided I am a total atheist. 100%



[eta] when I was working at the MYCCI doing literacy tutoring, I was surprised by how many of my work colleagues believed in God. I'd say probably 70% of the people working there held some kind of belief, either as an out and out Christian, or in a more tentative form.

Really surprised me. Not an environment I am used to. In my life generally, I have found that far fewer believe. Over here, we tend to see church and Jesus as something for kidlings and grannies.

We've talked about it before on here, but there is a definate imbalance between how much religion we are exposed to as children and how many of us then go on to be religious. Unlike the States, over here all state-funded schools are by law organised 'along broadly Christian principles' and, our kids are given Christian assemblies and take part in collective acts of worhsip. Many of our state schools are in fact 'Faith' schools. My primary school was nominally a Church of England school. But probably less than 25% of the intake were from church-going families. Just as many muslims and non-religious children attend the local Catholic school. In fact faith schools are obligated to take a certain amount of children not attached to the church. Everything about our state is intertwined with religion. Both the BBC, and ITV, the biggest independant broadcaster are obliged as part of their licence agreements to provide a certain amount of faith-based programming on radio and tv. Though religious organizations are not allowed, by law, to own and operate national terrestrial stations. Most people in Britain of my age will have spent at least some portion of their Sundays, growing up, watching religious programmes (probably as a way of avoiding homework for Monday) like Songs of Praise.

As a primary school child (kindergarten/elementary) the last thing we did every day before leaving school, was to pray as a class:

'Hands together,
Eyes shut tight
I pray the lord
keep me safe tonight'

Our education is steeped in it, even in schools that only pay lipservice to the legal requirements for christian prayer and gathering.

Yet, we are a very irreligious bunch.

Over in the States, your children are protected from religion in schools. State and church are not intertwined. Yet you are a far more religious society all in all.

[monster]

This is very interesting. And I missed the skewered/skewed pole/poll last night (and I'm not entirely sure I get it), but do people think the way I worded the question will lead to biased results?

And yes, MTP, I wanted agnostic to go in the "not atheist" category. I wanted to know how many are totally and utterly sure there is no god.

Last night I learned my friend -who I was pretty sure was atheist- told me she had three weddings -one in front of a JP and then one in each of their respective churches. I commented/assumed it was to keep the relatives happy, but apparently no, it was so their kids could be baptized in the respective churches. Just in case. She says atheist, but to me that's agnostic. Not that there's anything wrong with being agnostic, it's just that I'm not.

[Pico and ME]

She said just in case in regards to their souls or maybe just their social standing later on? I remember going to a few Sunday school sessions when I was very young yet my Mom was an atheist. She said she did it so that I wouldn't be socially ostracized. (This was back in the 60's)

[DanaC]

I think it's the thread title rather than the actual poll that might skewer the results.

[infinite monkey]

I call myself agnostic but it's not without a wince when I say the word. It seems so fence-sitting, to not even have conviction that you have no conviction. Also, I never believed that "believing just in case" was any kind of real belief at all.

I like to believe we are all energy. When we die, that energy goes back into the natural world, not into some spiritual realm. I may lean on my heritage when I say that 'nature' is our god.

I liked what foot says about believing in as many gods as he can.

I went to a Catholic elementary school. I remember being a kid lying awake at night trying to process 'eternity' and not just eternity but our role in it. Like, if you lied to your mom you would burn in eternal hellfire. No, you are done. That is it. You effed up and now you will suffer for 'all of eternity.' When we were in Jr Hi we had to go to CCD classes. In HS, it was up to us. I didn't go back.

I'd love to believe there is some kind of magical paradise we get to go to, a place where our loved ones are. But hoping for that belief does not make me a believer.

However, for the purpose of this poll, I will have to say "not atheist."

[DanaC]

Maybe the poll would be better if it offered more options:

Definately believe in God
Believe in some kind of higher spirit
Don't believe in God, but open to the idea/undecided
Definately believe there is no God

[DanaC]

@ Infi: sounds to me like you are an agnostic atheist:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agnostic_atheists


Maybe you should have selected atheist after all :P

[infinite monkey]

But the fence is already digging into my ass!

I think I defined the word agnostic too loosely. I had no idea there were branches of that, even.

I wish I could just make up my mind! I can't even buy any of the bumper stickers, I'm so wishy washy where these things are concerned!

[Pico and ME]

Logically, if I consider how the belief in god(s) originated in the first place, there is just no way to continually carry on with it. Its a total shut down of the rational mind otherwise. Once its concluded that any (supernatural/supreme) god man has come up with is suspect, then any other thinking along those lines is too.

ETA: And yet, there was a time in my life that I was really into astrology and how it defines personalities...so go figure. We are always searching for definitions/explanations of some sort.

[DanaC]

Originally Posted by Pico and ME

Logically, if I consider how the belief in a god(s) originated in the first place, there is just no way to continually carry on with it. Its a total shut down of the rational mind otherwise. Once its concluded that any (supernatural/supreme) god man has come up with is suspect, then any thinking along those lines is too.

Beautifully put.


One of the things I find frustrating about the God/No God debate is that anybody who is sure in their own mind that God does not exist is characterised as arrogant in that surety. How can we possibly know for sure that there is no God? Well, by the same token how can we possibly know for sure that there isn't a leprechaun at the end of the rainbow, or that unicorns don't exist?

If I say I am absolutely sure in my own mind that there is no such thing as Santa Claus, or the Toothfairy, nobody takes me to task for my arrogance.

[infinite monkey]

My more cynical self (naw, not YOU, you say) thinks it was all (by all I mean religion in all its forms) conjured up so that no one ever had to think that when you're done, you're done. You're not a special entity. You are matter, and there isn't a higher matter existing within you that gets to go on to keep acting in the great play of life: Scene 2, Take 1.

And this is when my head blew up.

[DanaC]

Nah. It all makes sense as a part of human development. If you look at the way faith and religions first began to manifest in things like cremation and stone tombs. Each generation builds on what went before. Religion makes perfect sense in that context.

The correlation between social power and religiosity then makes for some more cynical applications. But even those quite often produced socially useful strictures.

[glatt]

If I *think* about it, then I tend towards being atheist.

If I just follow my feelings, then I tend towards being agnostic. It *feels* right that there would be a God, but of course there is absolutely no evidence of one. That's why it's called faith.

I was raised Catholic, so I got a pretty serious indoctrination. It takes some effort to undo that. My Episcopalian wife is fairly religious, and out of deference to her, we go pretty regularly as a family to church almost every Sunday. My kids like church, and I think it's good for them. They both have a lot of responsibility and have a community there that supports them and genuinely cares about them. They are also being indoctrinated, but I think that's ok because the philosophy being taught is a good one overall.

During the service, there's a part where everyone recites what they believe in. Kind of like kids in school reciting the pledge of allegiance. I cringe during that part, because it sounds like such a load of BS. Some days I mumble along too. Some days I just keep my mouth shut.

At home, we say grace before eating dinner as a family. I also think this is good, because it reminds us that we are fortunate to have food. Some people don't. And we shouldn't take it for granted. Did God give us the food? Not really. I paid for it. But it's just pure dumb luck that I was born into my position in society in an educated family with good role models for being responsible. It's OK to acknowledge that there are some things that are just outside of our control and attribute that to God.

[DanaC]

I think the danger there though, is that it is not much of a leap to thinking that we are where we are because that's where God wants us to be. A dangerous lie that sits at the heart of the so-called prosperity gospel.


Being grateful for God for putting food on our tables (in a roundabout way as you suggest) and placing us in a life that allows for happiness and prosperity, carries with it an assumption that God also put those unfortunate people who have less into their positions in life. If we are blessed, then they are cursed. Quite aside from the implied judgement on those who are not blessed, it also risks letting the rest of us (society and government) off the hook for the inequity in our society.


[eta] not suggesting that's what you are teaching your kids of course :p Nowt wrong with a little recognition of one's good fortune as a kid.