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Old 12-14-2017, 06:19 PM   #16
Happy Monkey
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
The latter. It's doing nothing at all.
Which includes that it's barely even a case of "behave others".
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I can't remember when I last witnessed a specific incident. (After 9th grade.)
...
I have never seen a colleague play grabass with an unwilling secretary, or chase her around the desk cartoon-style, a la some sort of mid-60s sitcom.
That's good. If you did see that, would you prefer that everyone else just averted their eyes and let the colleague do that?
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Have you? What was it?
Like I said, I also don't recall such an incident.
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So, now, having witnessed that - dang should I have said something??
As described, it doesn't sound like harassment. It sounds like you've given some thought into what the ramifications of reporting it to HR would be.
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It would depend on why they would say it; but, if I pushed back and there was a bevy of yentas screaming that I was foul, and part of the non-niceness problem, is.. is that cool?

Level of difficulty of the question: the demand was that I do something nice. The bevy is doing something not nice.
My difficulty is in viewing a "do good things" posted out into the ether as an onerous demand on you in particular.

If I saw that someone had posted "pay it forward", I would appreciate the sentiment, but through inertia and laziness probably fail to actually do it. If instead, I had interpreted it as an unreasonable demand on my personal time, and complained to the poster that there are so many reasons NOT to pay it forward, I would expect that to be an unpopular position.

Now, I have no idea just how horrible the yenta apes were to you, so they may very well have gone too far, in which case it's for the best to disconnect as you did. But I also don't really get what you were going for with your initial reply to them.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:20 PM   #17
DanaC
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I don't think rape jokes make people rape. I don't even think they make 'rape' socially acceptable - what they can do, depending on the target of the joke, is feed into a viewpoint and potentially reinforce or confirm it. It can, imo, act to downgrade how certain behaviour is perceived - like date rape, for instance, or domestic violence, or a penchant for very young teenagers (jail bait). Not for most of that group of friends - but for someone who is already leaning in that direction.

I'll have to go looking for them at some at some point, but there have been some really interesting studies into how young men (in particular) respond to peer attitudes to this kind of thing.

I should stress by the way, that I am not referring to all rape jokes. There is a particular strand of humour that has the victim of rape as the butt of the joke. It's the kind of joke that invites the audience to vicariously participate in that power relationship. Similarly there is a strand of humour that has the battered wife or girlfriend as the butt of the joke - and again, the audience is invited to associate in to the one assaulting her.

With that particular strand of humour, there's an undercurrent of 'we'd all like to do this really'.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:21 PM   #18
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Originally Posted by Happy Monkey View Post
Which includes that it's barely even a case of "behave others".
That's good. If you did see that, would you prefer that everyone else just averted their eyes and let the colleague do that?
Like I said, I also don't recall such an incident.
As described, it doesn't sound like harassment. It sounds like you've given some thought into what the ramifications of reporting it to HR would be.My difficulty is in viewing a "do good things" posted out into the ether as an onerous demand on you in particular.

If I saw that someone had posted "pay it forward", I would appreciate the sentiment, but through inertia and laziness probably fail to actually do it. If instead, I had interpreted it as an unreasonable demand on my personal time, and complained to the poster that there are so many reasons NOT to pay it forward, I would expect that to be an unpopular position.

Now, I have no idea just how horrible the yenta apes were to you, so they may very well have gone too far, in which case it's for the best to disconnect as you did. But I also don't really get what you were going for with your initial reply to them.
This.
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Old 12-14-2017, 06:32 PM   #19
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Originally Posted by Happy Monkey View Post
If you did see that, would you prefer that everyone else just averted their eyes and let the colleague do that?
are you just a being a dick. do we have a problem here.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:07 PM   #20
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My difficulty is in viewing a "do good things" posted out into the ether as an onerous demand on you in particular.
Oh now I get it. No, it wasn't about me. It was about ALL good guys.

And as is the case with such things, it was about the poster. That's why he posted it. It wasn't to encourage good behavior.

One moment's aside: remember, he's on Facebook. He's not talking to the world. He's talking to his self-selected friends. This are his chosen friends. And the women who will reflect on his moral status after his statement. That is his biggest audience.

My pushback was speaking from the point of view of one of the good guys. I suppose you might not find that obvious but I did assume Terry would see it that way. From the good guys point of view, we don't need any coaching. We're good to go, Ace. We're the ones rocking the house. Our job is to keep being awesome.

And frankly, as xoB points out: in a world where the alpha males get the pussy -- and we are biologically driven to pursue the pussy -- that is No Small Task In Itself. But we stick to it, because we're fucking awesome. And because we thought about it, and are civilized, and are pro-human.

Not because someone posted about it on Facebook.
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Old 12-14-2017, 07:21 PM   #21
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Sorry to triple post. Here's one way to think about this. Sometimes we get the advice, don't say anything to someone that you wouldn't say in person.

That just makes sense. that is a good way to think about things.

What if your friend got up in a room of all his friends and moralized like that. How would that be? It'd be like, hey friend, nice gesture but uh -- kinda wasn't needed -- you just got weird at the very least -- I mean at least based on your own past history --

Like the niece who stood up in the middle of one family Christmas party and said now let's take a minute to think about the homeless! Okay that is all perfectly fine, and a marvelous gesture, and we do care very much, but at the same time everybody knows that little display didn't actually help anyone, and was far more about Alison than about the homeless, and was not necessarily the best thing to to, it being Christmas and the family and all.
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:39 PM   #22
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
I had to unfriend former Dwellar elSicomoro.

He posted that men who are not involved should "say something if they see something". I was moved to say that we gents who are blameless don't really have a job to do here, our job is to just keep being awesome.

His group of yenta friends lept on me in attack. It's always the bad ones who will say something like that, they said, and it was off to the races, no real discussion to be had.

It was their big opportunity to attack in retaliation for god knows what. All I could think is, wow I have woken and angered this pack of apes and now I see them advancing, color in their eyes. Now I'm one of the bad ones. But I can see they love it; and once in ape mode there's no talking to be done. I stuck around and played for a little while, tried to explain how attacking me was absolutely wrong. But once I had "transgressed", forget it.

Sycamore's been an associate since 2001, and came to my 40th birthday party. Unfriended. Because who on this earth needs THAT particular kind of shit in their lives?

(Nobody, and that's why this place is barren now. But I digress.)

~

People have started to call it "virtue signaling" when somebody makes a public proclamation of how they support blah blah blah. I think that's an appropriate tag. Go out and publicly declare yourself good. Shame the Others to demonstrate how Good you are.

But it's the sort of thing Weinstein does -- they all do -- I posted a picture of Weinstein at the pink pussy march, on Syc's thread, to make a point of it. I'm not a predator, I am part of your pack, Weinstein and others are saying. Hunters trick the prey into allowing them to get as close as possible before the killing shot.

Because these public proclamations are NOT for the ears of the predators.

And the behavior of the apes showed it for what it was, as they circled to create and protect the perceived pack from danger. And the danger was....

...me!
Maaaaaan, that's a lot of whining right there. I will say I'm sorry a bunch of Syc's friends were mean to you. I'll speak up here and now and say that's *not cool*. Your remark doesn't justify an ape pack attack.

I have some questions though. What kinds of behavior that you can imagine seeing that would prompt you to say something? Give us a sense of your threshold for speaking up. A couple examples would do nicely. But, maybe you're a keep it to yourself at all times kinda guy.

I'm also curious as to what virtue you're signalling with this thread, your statement of lane-staying, blameless awesomeness. What are you propounding?
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Old 12-14-2017, 08:54 PM   #23
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are you just a being a dick. do we have a problem here.
You're pushing back against "if you see something, say something", and then mentioned a thing that one might see. It seemed like a situation where one might say something.
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Oh now I get it. No, it wasn't about me. It was about ALL good guys.

And as is the case with such things, it was about the poster. That's why he posted it. It wasn't to encourage good behavior.

One moment's aside: remember, he's on Facebook. He's not talking to the world. He's talking to his self-selected friends. This are his chosen friends. And the women who will reflect on his moral status after his statement. That is his biggest audience.
I don't use Facebook, and I have no idea how many friends he has, but I've had the feeling from ambient cultural exposure that many people treat Facebook as if they're announcing to the general population.
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My pushback was speaking from the point of view of one of the good guys. I suppose you might not find that obvious but I did assume Terry would see it that way. From the good guys point of view, we don't need any coaching. We're good to go, Ace. We're the ones rocking the house. Our job is to keep being awesome.
"See something, say something" is a request to the good guys. If he were talking to the bad guys, he'd say "stop harassing women". But good guys can have blind spots.

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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
Like the niece who stood up in the middle of one family Christmas party and said now let's take a minute to think about the homeless! Okay that is all perfectly fine, and a marvelous gesture, and we do care very much, but at the same time everybody knows that little display didn't actually help anyone, and was far more about Alison than about the homeless, and was not necessarily the best thing to to, it being Christmas and the family and all.
If you "yes and"ed her, she'd either be delighted, or shown up, depending on what her actual motivations were. Or, if you smile and nod, the event is over. But if you respond with "I give change to homeless people*, and you don't really care about them, you're just trying to look good to the family", then even people who might have found her speech tedious may very well end up defending her.

"Don't say anything to someone that you wouldn't say in person" seems to apply much more strongly to the response than the request in this case.

* Or whatever the equivalent of not harassing women is in this analogy.
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Last edited by Happy Monkey; 12-14-2017 at 10:34 PM. Reason: analogy update
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Old 12-14-2017, 09:10 PM   #24
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Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
snip-- (It's all good, but this part is the best)

For the rest of us it appeared women had the power, were in control, and guys like me would have to do the best we could to win favor sex. We all used the tools we had, and for a few one of those tools was power. Whether the physical power to rape or social power of the paycheck, itís not fair, not right.
It isn't fair, it isn't right.

I believe that I should try to do what *is* fair, what *is* right, all the time, to the best of my ability. I fall short of that ability practically all the time, with occasional spikes up to the line of my ability, then back down to "if I'm not too tired".

Sex... whoooooo....

What a loaded topic. Just freighted with all kinds of stuff, power, desire, violence, romance, tenderness, and on and on and on and on. And I know you all know what I mean and the degree to which this is understated. I'm a grown goddamn man and it's still a delightful, frustrating, satisfying, complex, fulfilling, enticing, teasing *MYSTERY*, day by day. There's so much to it, and yet it can still be focused to a pinpoint, figuratively speaking.

I think of an orchestra, when it's at it's most fulsome and graceful. And sometimes I just feel like a Buddy Rich solo, so to speak. The coming together (pardon the pun) of two people each with their own baggage, present mental and physical state, can we be heard?, can we be seen, and on and on....

That people do get it on at all peaceably and mutually seems more a miracle, more surprising than the current domination of the news of So. Many. Assholes.

In my experience, and using my experience as context for what I'm reading and hearing, there is a WIDE RANGE of gambits and a similarly wide range of responses. And context is king. No, strike that, Consent is King. Anyhow, I think I mostly (stupefying understatement) don't know all the facts, or even many of the facts of what's in the news lately. But I also know that I have had my words and intentions misunderstood. Sucks for me. But for someone on the other side of the conversation, maybe their experience wasn't just "darnit, let me try to rephrase that", but something much more alarming, more horrible.

That mismatch, man, I hate it when that happens. But some of these fucking assholes are COUNTING ON THAT MISUNDERSTANDING, as several, including you, UT, have pointed out. Who the fuck likes being tricked? And then fucked in the bargain? Right. Nobody. Doing it with deliberate deception is just evil and/or criminal. Those fuckers should burn.

And along the spectrum, being crass, being boorish, being a clue-challenged asshole shouldn't be grounds for criminal prosecution, and maybe not for being forced from one's job. Maybe maybe baby baby... what the hell do I know.


Using the tools one has, pursuing the goals one has, engaging and communicating with another person, enjoining them to join together, so to speak, that's how it's done. But if my tool is power and her tool is her body, and my goal is an orgasm and her goal is to keep her job... it's not gonna end well, not for her. Just because you can doesn't mean you should. We all know that. But we now see many many instances of justification, if you're not caught, you're not guilty. If you don't resist, you don't have to go on unemployment.

Yeah.. that's not right.
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Old 12-14-2017, 10:19 PM   #25
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I'm with you Dana, all except the part where rape jokes create rapists because they make rape more socially acceptable. I don't think the jokes do that and I don't think that's how rapists are made. It's just a guess on my part though. I could be wrong.
I don't think she said they create rapists, she said the rapist doesn't realize the others aren't laughing for the same reason.

BigV, ever since "go forth and multiply" or "Be fruitful and multiply" that's been the mandate our lives wrap around.
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:00 AM   #26
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All of which is to say, Facebook is breaking us. It was an interesting experiment sharing our individual truth to a large self-chosen group but group think is reinforced across politics, religion, race, and gender. Nothing subtle is expressed, we get puritanism from each group but people are not pure, we are damn messy and need to think out loud. Fuck it, I'm going to work.
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:15 AM   #27
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I don't think she said they create rapists, she said the rapist doesn't realize the others aren't laughing for the same reason.
She said "because he probably assumes all his mates think the same way deep down." The suggestion is that the rape will now happen because the rapist believes there is an element of acceptability.

I'm just guessing, because I never took abnormal psych or anything, but I imagine rapists are generally sociopathic.

The calculation of "those guys think it is ok therefore it is ok" is OUR logic because we are normal. But it's not the way a sociopath would reason; with a lack of empathy, what other people think and how they will cast judgement is not important to them. I would imagine that a sociopath is more likely to rape because it's NOT socially acceptable. But like I say, that's just my guess.
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:30 AM   #28
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Facebook is breaking us
It really is, and that's the bottom line of this thread if anything.

As people react to my poorly-communicated reaction, it requires long text to really discuss well; it requires a little knowing about each other; it requires a little angry back and forth to be permitted; and a little faith. None of this can happen on Facebook.

Which is why the unfriending. People are going to be political on Facebook, but we can't discuss it. We can't talk, it's a horrible venue for discussion of any kind, and in this case leads immediately to tribal ape behavior where the outsider must be purged. Fuck that; as the outsider I will just purge myself and make it easier on everyone.
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Old 12-15-2017, 07:51 AM   #29
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You're pushing back against "if you see something, say something", and then mentioned a thing that one might see. It seemed like a situation where one might say something.
Just being argumentative has led you to casting me as bad. Yeah don't do that. Assume I'm good. You've had 15 years and 25,000 posts to figure me out, you should know by now.

You can assume I would actually say something if I were ever in the position of being able to do so and assuming this situation was understood and there was benefit. I don't know why I have to say this.

And again, that is partly why the moralizing is empty, and meaningless, and ineffective at trying to change things.

Trying to paint me as someone who is bad in order to win a point is infuriating, and I won't stand for it. If this happened in person it would be immediately obvious where the transgression lies. I don't get violent, but I wouldn't let someone finish their sentence. If I'm BAD, the discussion is over.
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Old 12-15-2017, 08:04 AM   #30
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as the outsider I will just purge myself and make it easier on everyone.
Don't

Facebook is best when people just post about their lives. The ball game they went to or the trip they took. The gig they played.

A lot of it ends up being boring and of no interest, but it's nice to see what's going on with people and you can scroll past the stuff that doesn't interest you.

The shit that Facebook feeds me is when a friend comments on a stranger's post. I don't want to see that. I don't know that person and I don't care about their conversation. I also don't want to see anything that is shared, because it's almost always political bullshit. They are trying to persuade me. I'm guilty of this myself because I have shared stuff, but the stuff I share is cool and non-political. Finally, I don't want to see anything that a friend has liked on a stranger's post. Likes should be visible only to the person being liked and to anyone who is already going to that post.

What do I want to see? Original content posted by friends. Tell me about your life.

I think the problem is that very few people tell you about their life, and so Facebook has to fill your feed with something. And if they fill it with controversial shit that makes you mad, you will stick around longer looking at their ads.


Oh, and for the record, I oppose sexual misconduct.
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