The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Politics

Politics Where we learn not to think less of others who don't share our views

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 12-18-2010, 07:32 PM   #1
richlevy
King Of Wishful Thinking
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs
Posts: 6,669
Thomas Jefferson - still relevant

I was rereading Jefferson's first inaugural address.

Quote:
During the contest of opinion through which we have passed the animation of discussions and of exertions has sometimes worn an aspect which might impose on strangers unused to think freely and to speak and to write what they think; but this being now decided by the voice of the nation, announced according to the rules of the Constitution, all will, of course, arrange themselves under the will of the law, and unite in common efforts for the common good. All, too, will bear in mind this sacred principle, that though the will of the majority is in all cases to prevail, that will to be rightful must be reasonable; that the minority possess their equal rights, which equal law must protect, and to violate would be oppression.
Translation: The Constitution guarantees the right to speak and write freely. Some people aren't used to this. Just because the majority rules, they aren't allowed to be jerks about it.

Quote:
Let us, then, fellow-citizens, unite with one heart and one mind. Let us restore to social intercourse that harmony and affection without which liberty and even life itself are but dreary things. And let us reflect that, having banished from our land that religious intolerance under which mankind so long bled and suffered, we have yet gained little if we countenance a political intolerance as despotic, as wicked, and capable of as bitter and bloody persecutions. During the throes and convulsions of the ancient world, during the agonizing spasms of infuriated man, seeking through blood and slaughter his long-lost liberty, it was not wonderful that the agitation of the billows should reach even this distant and peaceful shore; that this should be more felt and feared by some and less by others, and should divide opinions as to measures of safety. But every difference of opinion is not a difference of principle. We have called by different names brethren of the same principle. We are all Republicans, we are all Federalists. If there be any among us who would wish to dissolve this Union or to change its republican form, let them stand undisturbed as monuments of the safety with which error of opinion may be tolerated where reason is left free to combat it. I know, indeed, that some honest men fear that a republican government can not be strong, that this Government is not strong enough; but would the honest patriot, in the full tide of successful experiment, abandon a government which has so far kept us free and firm on the theoretic and visionary fear that this Government, the world's best hope, may by possibility want energy to preserve itself? I trust not. I believe this, on the contrary, the strongest Government on earth. I believe it the only one where every man, at the call of the law, would fly to the standard of the law, and would meet invasions of the public order as his own personal concern. Sometimes it is said that man can not be trusted with the government of himself. Can he, then, be trusted with the government of others? Or have we found angels in the forms of kings to govern him? Let history answer this question.
Translation: If there are those who confuse democracy (actually a republic) with weakness and pine for the good old days of the monarchy, don't beat them up.

I have this image of Jefferson striding into the studio during one of Glenn Beck's pseudo-educational rants and basically telling him that he's got it all wrong but not to worry - the Constitution enshrines and protects every man's right to be an idiot.
__________________
Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE!
I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama
richlevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2010, 07:46 PM   #2
Lamplighter
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods
Posts: 6,402
Very entertaining and remarkably veracious commentary
Lamplighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2010, 09:13 PM   #3
W.HI.P
Free
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,513
Since we're quoting Thomas:

"If the American people ever allow private banks
to control the issue of their money,
first by inflation and then by deflation,
the banks and corporations that will
grow up around them (around the banks),
will deprive the people of their property
until their children will wake up homeless
on the continent their fathers conquered."
__________________
pls stfu k thx
W.HI.P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2010, 09:21 PM   #4
Lamplighter
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods
Posts: 6,402
Sorry WHIP, Snopes says this quote is false

I'm not sure there were things called "corporations" in his time,
but then maybe there were. Something to check out.
Lamplighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2010, 09:33 PM   #5
W.HI.P
Free
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,513
There are dozens of Jefferson's quotes, that state the exact same thing.
Just as George Washington did, Thomas warns future American's of the situation American's are now living in

""The system of banking we have both equally and ever reprobated. I contemplate it as a blot left in all our constitutions, which, if not covered, will end in their destruction, which is already hit by the gamblers in corruption, and is sweeping away in its progress the fortunes and morals of our citizens.""

Snopes claim that is is false, seems to be false
__________________
pls stfu k thx
W.HI.P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2010, 09:38 PM   #6
W.HI.P
Free
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,513
The following of course, is that of a constitution, who's purpose, has not been upheld.

"And what country can preserve its liberties, if the rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms"
__________________
pls stfu k thx
W.HI.P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2010, 10:33 PM   #7
Lamplighter
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods
Posts: 6,402
Quote:
Originally Posted by W.HI.P View Post
There are dozens of Jefferson's quotes, that state the exact same thing.
Just as George Washington did, Thomas warns future American's of the situation American's are now living in

""The system of banking we have both equally and ever reprobated. I contemplate it as a blot left in all our constitutions, which, if not covered, will end in their destruction, which is already hit by the gamblers in corruption, and is sweeping away in its progress the fortunes and morals of our citizens.""

Snopes claim that is is false, seems to be false
Strange, Snopes doesn't seem to have this quote at all

But I did find it in another source... Hooray !
Lamplighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-18-2010, 11:54 PM   #8
W.HI.P
Free
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Location: Canada
Posts: 1,513
One more, just to digest his points

"I hope we shall... crush in its birth the aristocracy of our moneyed corporations which dare already to challenge our government in a trial of strength, and bid defiance to the laws of our country."

Obviously, the USA failed.
__________________
pls stfu k thx
W.HI.P is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 12:48 AM   #9
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Don't forget Jefferson did not speak for the nation, or even the government, his opinions were his own.
Prior to 1800, Washington was the one that held the government together, while these competing factions, primarily Federalist and Democratic-Republicans, vied for the direction the nation would evolve. When Washington retired, it was open warfare for a chance to push one of the factions into a position where they could lead the nation in their direction.
Jefferson tied with Burr, but was given the presidency by electors still not chosen by the people. So it was his faction, which also included equally powerful men, that hammered out policy. The result is not everything Jefferson expounded in his speeches/writings became law, or even official policy.

Oh, and it was another hundred years, 1913, before the Federal Reserve was established to screw us completely.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 10:34 AM   #10
TheMercenary
“Hypocrisy: prejudice with a halo”
 
Join Date: Mar 2007
Location: Savannah, Georgia
Posts: 21,393
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlevy View Post
I was rereading Jefferson's first inaugural address.

Translation: The Constitution guarantees the right to speak and write freely. Some people aren't used to this. Just because the majority rules, they aren't allowed to be jerks about it.

Translation: If there are those who confuse democracy (actually a republic) with weakness and pine for the good old days of the monarchy, don't beat them up.

I have this image of Jefferson striding into the studio during one of Glenn Beck's pseudo-educational rants and basically telling him that he's got it all wrong but not to worry - the Constitution enshrines and protects every man's right to be an idiot.
It is this very difference between a democracy and a republic to which Jefferson is referring to.
__________________
Anyone but the this most fuked up President in History in 2012!
TheMercenary is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-19-2010, 11:18 AM   #11
Griff
still says videotape
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
Quote:
Originally Posted by xoxoxoBruce View Post
Don't forget Jefferson did not speak for the nation, or even the government, his opinions were his own.
Yep it was good guys (Jefferson) vs bad guys (Hamilton) and in the long run the bad guys won because the good guys compromised their integrity on stuff like human bondage and developing a landed aristocracy.
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Griff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2010, 09:17 AM   #12
richlevy
King Of Wishful Thinking
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Location: Philadelphia Suburbs
Posts: 6,669
Quote:
Originally Posted by Griff View Post
Yep it was good guys (Jefferson) vs bad guys (Hamilton) and in the long run the bad guys won because the good guys compromised their integrity on stuff like human bondage and developing a landed aristocracy.
Yep, I had a political discussion with someone recently who opined that voting should be limited to property owners. I couldn't figure out where this atavistic notion came from, until a month or so later I saw some talking head spout the same lunacy.

Add to this the chatter about actually redefining or repealing Section 1 of the 14th amendment and there seems to be an ugly trend towards advocating disenfranchisement.

In other words, the idea that being a Republic is not enough, and that we must somehow measure the fitness of citizens to vote.

It's ironic that this idea is being spouted amongst some conservatives, when some of them are already incensed over the election of a President with whom they disagree. The idea that in the midst of these people are others who hold the view that some of them should not be allowed to vote is ironic.

There is a basic contract implied in Jefferson's writings - that in exchange for a representative government, the people shall not take up arms. That even if you disagree with an administration, you can redress your grievances at the ballot box. If that right of these people is abridged, then that contract is broken.

From the time I was able to vote at 18, I believe that I voted for less than half of the presidents who took office. While I disagreed with them, and while I believe that one of them was the worst president in the past 80 years (I stopped at Harding), I tempered my disagreement with the knowledge that I was able to make my choice.

I can't even imagine what it was like to be living under Jim Crow and technically be allowed to vote but be cheated out of the opportunity. And now some idiots are proposing two discredited ideas that will take us 50 or a 100 years backward.

I was watching Condoleeza Rice explain why she became a Republican. It was mostly because Southern Democrats denied her father the right to vote. How ironic is it that there are voices coming from within her own party that would take us back to that time and those practices.

Quote:
Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.
__________________
Exercise your rights and remember your obligations - VOTE!
I have always believed that hope is that stubborn thing inside us that insists, despite all the evidence to the contrary, that something better awaits us so long as we have the courage to keep reaching, to keep working, to keep fighting. -- Barack Hussein Obama
richlevy is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2010, 09:42 AM   #13
Griff
still says videotape
 
Join Date: Feb 2001
Posts: 26,813
You've said a lot there Rich. Deciding fitness to vote would be an amazing can of worms. It is obvious to partisans left and right that certain segments of the opposition are unfit to vote. Young people are too inexperienced, old people are too addled, god focused, godless... it could go on and on.

Accepting the results as valid is crucial. Bush v Gore came damn near to sinking that acceptance. The birther silliness only exacerbates the problem. If you believe that stuff try not being surprised when the other side finds that your duly elected official lacks credentials. I've attended my right wing Christmas events and the righties seemed leavened in their contempt for the President by the Congressional change. Now that they have a stake in the game they'll have to actually take positions other than "No". Hopefully some sense of balance will develop.
__________________
If you would only recognize that life is hard, things would be so much easier for you.
- Louis D. Brandeis
Griff is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2010, 10:33 AM   #14
Lamplighter
Person who doesn't update the user title
 
Join Date: Jun 2010
Location: Bottom lands of the Missoula floods
Posts: 6,402
Rich... very well said.
Griff...also
Lamplighter is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-26-2010, 02:01 PM   #15
tw
Read? I only know how to write.
 
Join Date: Jan 2001
Posts: 11,933
Quote:
Originally Posted by richlevy View Post
Yep, I had a political discussion with someone recently who opined that voting should be limited to property owners. I couldn't figure out where this atavistic notion came from, until a month or so later I saw some talking head spout the same lunacy.
That lunacy comes from the intent of our founding fathers. Only chosen white men who owned property should be allowed to vote. That we have learned from their mistakes falls on extremist deaf ears - when convenient.

Back then, the issue was religious extremism. An idea that religion should be divorced from government was a controversial issue. Founding fathers escaped from nations that promoted religious hate. Therefore advocated a first of so many enlightened principles - separation of church and state (that even Christine McDonnell could not understand). Today, so many (including McDonnell and so many like her) are backtracking. Even the Catholic Church orders Catholics to impose Catholic doctrine on all Americans. What America needs - more pedophiles and religious intolerance.

Buy back then, women were inferior creatures who could not be trusted to vote.

Back then, slavery was an irrelevant issue because the negro was not considered intelligent or American.

Back then, only those who owned property were citizens and could be trusted to vote.

Strange how the advancement of mankind is so often lost on extremists who would impose Christian doctrine (including hate of Muslims) on all others. Advocating repeal of the 14th Amendment is how some enemies of innovation and tolerance would impose their hate and dogma.

Extremism would even use government to impose religion on all others - ie stem cell research. Conveniently ignore a founding father's intent to separate religion from government. Selectively citing history identifies a political agenda.

It took almost 100 years (July 1868) for America to learn a citizen is not just a white man with birthright, property, and a gun. Since we must reestablish our founding father's mistakes, then we should only empower White Power? At what point does hate, routinely promoted by extremism, become so obvious?
tw is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 01:16 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.