The Cellar  

Go Back   The Cellar > Main > Politics

Politics Where we learn not to think less of others who don't share our views

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 06-02-2019, 11:35 AM   #61
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
So, go ahead, gimme a specific circumstance, let's see if I how much I have to distort MYOB/KYHTY/OE to make it work.

I predict no matter how devilish you are in the scenario-makin', MYOB/KYHTY/OE will work, cleanly, clearly, no idiosyncratic interpretations needed.
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 12:55 PM   #62
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
sumthin' to chew on

The Wide-Open Field

By Holly Lisle

Right now, the world I want to live in is being destroyed in front of my eyes by the people who think they’re saving it.

Being different and trying to force people to respect how different you are by agitating for laws to require respect for your difference has become a cause célèbre.

Problem is, we are ALL different.

I don’t mean just a little different. I mean “holy shit, are you kidding me?” different.

Because no matter who you are and no matter what you want and love and think and desire, you are on the polar opposite end of the universe from not just one person you’d consider a freak, but by a whole lot of folks who think YOU’RE the freak.

Everybody is different. Hold on to that, because I’m going to come back to it.

And BECAUSE everybody is different, I think the case needs to be made for Real Individual Freedom, which is obtained by MYODBAKYHTY, otherwise known as the Philosophy of the Wide-Open Field.

And I am an excellent person to make this argument, because I am deeply and weirdly different, and BECAUSE of my own differences, I have been the beneficiary of the Wide-Open Field.

Right now, whole bunches of folks want a special law to protect their little bits of “special and different.”

And the thing about laws is, they create fences, and the more fences there are, the more impossible it becomes to get from who you are to who you want to become.

The very best law legislates as little as possible, with the broad rule that anything not expressly forbidden is permitted.

What is good and right and honorable in American law started here.

The absolute worst law legislates as much as possible, with the broad rule that anything not compulsory is forbidden.

Chinese Communist law, Russian Communist law, and the laws of all totalitarian countries start here and live here.

Right now, I see a lot of people trying to create laws legislating how people THINK about gender, and race, and political affiliations.

They want to FORCE respect for their point of view, for their alignment, for who they are.

They want to FORCE people to think that however they are is right, good, normal, okay.

And you can’t. People are going to think whatever they think, and you cannot do a single thing to force them to be better, but by trying to force people to think thoughts YOU approve of, you can make the situation a whole lot worse. And not just for them. For yourself.

You can’t make people like you, you can’t make people respect you, and you can’t make people believe that whatever way you are that’s different than the way they are is good, or okay.

You can create an environment, however, in which everyone has to start demanding their own laws to protect their own tiny bit of turf.

But Law create more fences, not more field.

So you can be part of the problem by locking down pieces of freedom with pieces of “compulsory action” and “compulsory thought.”

Or you can embrace the Philosophy of the Wide-Open Field, which starts with “Everything that is not forbidden is permitted,” and which is protected by the Rule of The Wide-Open Field:

MYODBAKYHTY
Pronounced Mee-YOD-bak-YHET-ee.

MYODBAKYHTY: Mind Your Own Damn Business, And Keep Your Hands To Yourself.

If you leave the Wide-Open Field wide open, there will be room enough in it for you to be whoever you are.

If you push for laws to try to force respect and obedience from those who don’t respect or like you, realize that the people YOU don’t like or respect can also get lawyers, and they too can push through bad laws that fence off thought and action and lock down parts of the field of individual rights and personal freedom until you cannot speak without doing so illegally, and you cannot think without committing a crime.

Please consider that there are four-hundred-million-ish people in the USA, and maybe as many as eleven of them HAVEN’T said, “There oughtta be a law…”

The Honest English translation of “There oughtta be a law…” is “I wanna shove MY view of the world down YOUR throat.”

When you support more laws, you start forcing people who never gave you a second thought before to hate you, because the law you favored put them in a box, and made them criminals for their thoughts.

MYODBAKYHTY.
Say it with me. Mee-YOD-bak-YHET-ee.
It is the simple rule that grants broad and amazing freedom. When you live by this rule, and this is the rule enforced by the law…

No one else needs to like you.

No one else needs to respect you.

Bastards can fucking HATE you… IF they mind their own business and keep their hands to themselves.

Which you make possible by doing the same thing.

The moment you realize that if you like and respect yourself and are living the life you want to live, or are at least pursuing the path you’ve set out for yourself to get there, you are FREE.

When you’re earned your own respect by living the life that matters to you, what other people think of you doesn’t affect your world.

And being able to walk across the Wide-Open Field that the freedom of broad individual rights creates allows all those narrow-minded bigoted jackasses you detest (the ones who don’t know you’re cool and who hate everything you think and love) to stand in their own place with their own issues and find their OWN path across the Wide-Open Field.

Probably well away from yours.

Maybe you don’t want them to have that freedom – the freedom to hate you from a distance.

Do you want the freedom to hate them from a distance, though?

Take a moment to consider that if the people you can’t stand are NOT forced by restrictive, field-narrowing laws to bow and grovel before what they hate or be criminalized for their THOUGHTS…

…the people who hate you (or at least what you stand for) might meet you in the field and come to like you, even if they discover you’re different, in whatever way you’re different. And no matter who you are, you’re at least different than someone, because odds are pretty high that whoever you are, you’re not like me.

And if those narrow-minded, bigoted, straight-gay-cis-trans-black-white-yellow-brown-red-rightwing-leftwing-middlewing-other-path assholes don’t like you?

Fuck ’em. Ignore them. Enjoy hating them in the privacy of your own unrestricted life.

As long as the rule is MYODBAKYHTY, and they’re following the rule, and you’re following the rule, and the government UPHOLDS the rule, the fact that they’re assholes doesn’t hurt you.

The Wide-Open Field gives freedom to everyone. Having a wide-open field lets you, me, and everyone else find our own way home to who we need to be, without having to fight through any laws, any restrictions, any punishment for being different.

‘Cause here’s the thing you gotta remember.

Everybody is different.

And when the Wide-Open Field is all locked down, EVERYONE gets locked up.

Contents © Holly Lisle. https://hollylisle.com All Rights Reserved
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 01:51 PM   #63
Happy Monkey
I think this line's mostly filler.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 13,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
I predict no matter how devilish you are in the scenario-makin', MYOB/KYHTY/OE will work, cleanly, clearly, no idiosyncratic interpretations needed.
EVERY application of MYOB/KYHTY/OEis an idiosyncratic interpretation.
__________________
_________________
|...............| We live in the nick of times.
| Len 17, Wid 3 |
|_______________| [pics]
Happy Monkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 03:04 PM   #64
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
no, you're wrong, hm, but let's put your assertion to the test...

...concoct some devilish, convoluted scenario and let's see how subjective I have to get to make 'mind your own business, keep your hands to yourself, or else' work.

I'm thinkin' you can't.
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 03:10 PM   #65
Clodfobble
UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION
 
Join Date: Mar 2004
Location: Austin, TX
Posts: 20,012
Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
Sure, as long as they never move beyond talkin'. The second they actually begin poisoning they're not mindin' their own business, not keepin' their hands to themselves and so deserve a hearty helping of 'or else.'
Say they aren't poisoning, they're just irrigating their land, but the river only has so much and now it's run dry for folks downstream.

Or say they poisoned it entirely by accident. And they really, truly didn't mean to, and now that they know, they've stopped immediately, but the damage is done. And it turns out there was someone else in town who knew that these two harmless chemicals made poison, and had maybe talked to a few people about it before, so it wasn't totally obscure knowledge, but the guy who made the mistake didn't happen to know. SHOULD he have known? Should he receive the same heaping of "or else" as the guy who poisons on purpose? What if 50% of the town says he deserves X amount of "or else," but 50% feels very strongly that he deserves at least three times that?
Clodfobble is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 04:02 PM   #66
sexobon
I love it when a plan comes together.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,793
Quote:
Originally Posted by Clodfobble View Post
… What if 50% of the town says he deserves X amount of "or else," but 50% feels very strongly that he deserves at least three times that?
They can assess him three times "or else" and put two thirds of the assessment UNDER CONDITIONAL MITIGATION.

You're an inspiration, Clod.
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 06:54 PM   #67
Happy Monkey
I think this line's mostly filler.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 13,575
Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
...concoct some devilish, convoluted scenario and let's see how subjective I have to get to make 'mind your own business, keep your hands to yourself, or else' work.

I'm thinkin' you can't.
OR ELSE what?


Purely objectively, please.
__________________
_________________
|...............| We live in the nick of times.
| Len 17, Wid 3 |
|_______________| [pics]
Happy Monkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 07:38 PM   #68
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
clod

"Say they aren't poisoning, they're just irrigating their land, but the river only has so much and now it's run dry for folks downstream."

Who is irrigating? Why are they irrigating? The folks downstream, were they aware of the irrigating operations upstream when they located where they did? who settled the area first. And, on and on, etc. etc.

I asked for scenarios: you give me a fill in the blank exercise.

In court (even the court of last resort you'd find in my minarchy) you'd have to do a damn sight better in presenting the facts.

#

"Or say they poisoned it entirely by accident. And they really, truly didn't mean to, and now that they know, they've stopped immediately, but the damage is done. And it turns out there was someone else in town who knew that these two harmless chemicals made poison, and had maybe talked to a few people about it before, so it wasn't totally obscure knowledge, but the guy who made the mistake didn't happen to know. SHOULD he have known? Should he receive the same heaping of "or else" as the guy who poisons on purpose? What if 50% of the town says he deserves X amount of "or else," but 50% feels very strongly that he deserves at least three times that?"

Joe fires his gun into the air on July 4th. The falling bullet strikes someone two miles away. Joe didn't mean to hurt someone. He had no intent to harm someone. But he did, he's responsible. The penalty, the 'or else', is mebbe the only 'interpretable' part of the equation.

In your scenario (piss poor, but slightly better than the first): the inadvertent poisoners shoulda known better. Even today, ignorance is no excuse (and that's with 100,000 regs on the fed level). In my minarchy with one clear principle and a handful of regs extendin' out from it, ignorance is defintely no excuse.

However, while the principle (mind your business, keep your hands to yourself) is plain & unambiguous, the consequence (the 'or else') is subject to interpretation, so...

I submit to havin' to kiss tw's keister (c'mere, you hunka man and let's get this over with).
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 07:46 PM   #69
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
hm

"OR ELSE what?"

Depends on the particular circumstances of someone 'not' minding their own business, of someone 'not' keeping their hands to themselves.

As I say, while the principle is sound, the penality is subject to some interpretation (that is, every circumstance is individual [there'd be no formal precedents in the night-watchman's court of last resort), so...

Again: I'm ready to plant one on tw's butt (bring that big sexy thang over, guy, and let's get 'er done).
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 09:53 PM   #70
Happy Monkey
I think this line's mostly filler.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 13,575
Purely subjective, then.
__________________
_________________
|...............| We live in the nick of times.
| Len 17, Wid 3 |
|_______________| [pics]
Happy Monkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 10:05 PM   #71
sexobon
I love it when a plan comes together.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,793
Common law would levy the requirement of proportionality of punishment to offense. The Golden Rule would essentially be in effect.
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 10:13 PM   #72
Happy Monkey
I think this line's mostly filler.
 
Join Date: Jan 2003
Location: DC
Posts: 13,575
People performing a lynching typically aren't capable of putting themselves in another's shoes, which is a requirement for implementing the golden rule.
__________________
_________________
|...............| We live in the nick of times.
| Len 17, Wid 3 |
|_______________| [pics]
Happy Monkey is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 10:24 PM   #73
sexobon
I love it when a plan comes together.
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 9,793
And the State (we the people), with all of its laws and judicial procedures, has incarcerated and executed innocent people for crimes they didn't commit. Other than no system is perfect, what's your point?
.
.
.

Last edited by sexobon; 06-02-2019 at 10:40 PM. Reason: spelling typo
sexobon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-02-2019, 10:47 PM   #74
henry quirk
maskless: yesterday, today, tomorrow
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Posts: 2,162
"Purely subjective, then."

The 'or else'?

Subjective: to a degree, yeah.

Purely: no.

Justice, by definition, is the balancing of scales.

Eye for an eye; not eye for a pinched candy bar.
henry quirk is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 06-03-2019, 12:24 AM   #75
xoxoxoBruce
The future is unwritten
 
Join Date: Oct 2002
Posts: 71,105
Quote:
Originally Posted by henry quirk View Post
The very best law legislates as little as possible, with the broad rule that anything not expressly forbidden is permitted.

What is good and right and honorable in American law started here.
Yes it did and that let people with money and connections run roughshod over the commoners, from slavery, to indentured servants, to the company store.
Worse yet these robber barons and their friends caused depressions where people actually starved to death, repeatedly. After the one leading up to WW I, then the one in the 1930's, FDR said fuck this, I'm tired of you fucking the people, shit's going to change.

He passed laws to protect people by regulating abusive businesses, then WWII got the economy moving. After the war the rise of regulations and labor unions(for all their faults) raised prosperity for all... except them negroes, and Mexicans, and Chinks, and lowlife musicians.

It's been proven over and over if a violation has to be adjudicated, the one with money/power/connections wins. The only way to stop the bastards is to spell it out, chapter and verse, so you have them dead to rights.

Quote:
And you can’t. People are going to think whatever they think, and you cannot do a single thing to force them to be better, but by trying to force people to think thoughts YOU approve of, you can make the situation a whole lot worse. And not just for them. For yourself.

You can’t make people like you, you can’t make people respect you, and you can’t make people believe that whatever way you are that’s different than the way they are is good, or okay.
Right, you can't make people like people they have already decided they don't like. That's human nature. But you can sure as hell make it illegal to attack them, burn their house, refuse them services of a public store or real estate rental.

Quote:
Or you can embrace the Philosophy of the Wide-Open Field, which starts with “Everything that is not forbidden is permitted,” and which is protected by the Rule of The Wide-Open Field:
MYODBAKYHTY
Pronounced Mee-YOD-bak-YHET-ee.
MYODBAKYHTY: Mind Your Own Damn Business, And Keep Your Hands To Yourself.

If you leave the Wide-Open Field wide open, there will be room enough in it for you to be whoever you are.
Historically that's led to mob rule.
Hey Jeb, that guy done me wrong and the law won't do nothing, so let's string him up.

Quote:
MYODBAKYHTY.
Say it with me. Mee-YOD-bak-YHET-ee.
It is the simple rule that grants broad and amazing freedom. When you live by this rule, and this is the rule enforced by the law…
No one else needs to like you.
No one else needs to respect you.
Bastards can fucking HATE you… IF they mind their own business and keep their hands to themselves.
As I said, as a country, been there, done that, didn't work.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Happy Monkey View Post
People performing a lynching typically aren't capable of putting themselves in another's shoes, which is a requirement for implementing the golden rule.
Wait, the golden rule is do unto others as you would have them do unto you.
Who says I wish they would lynch me??


Hey Henry, I got one for your side.

In 2008 Chicago collected $28,3 million (@ $3 and hour), from 36,000 parking meters.
Starting in 2009, Mayor Daley leased the meters, $1.16 Billion for 75 years, half the meters going to the Abu Dhabi Government. In 2013 it was up to $6.50 an hour. They have collected $1.2 Billion so far, $1,72 million in 2018 alone, and another 62 years to go.
Oh, and the city has to get permission to close a street for a parade or block party.

You're welcome.
__________________
The descent of man ~ Nixon, Friedman, Reagan, Trump.
xoxoxoBruce is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

All times are GMT -5. The time now is 04:40 AM.


Powered by: vBulletin Version 3.8.1
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.