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Old 08-06-2014, 06:14 AM   #31
DanaC
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Originally Posted by Big Sarge View Post
I hope you all realize I am teasing when I make comments about as in "some of y'all are going to burn".

I tend to assume you're teasing most of the time :p
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Old 08-06-2014, 07:58 AM   #32
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Originally Posted by DanaC
But Christianity is protected in a way atheism (or indeed most other religions) is not.
I wonder if this is precisely why the British population as a whole has been able to settle into being only socially religious: no underlying fear of oppression, no bogeyman for the more aggressive individuals to use to motivate the masses at the polls. God's already protected by the government, so he doesn't need the average person evangelizing for Him.
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Old 08-06-2014, 03:43 PM   #33
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Am I the only Dwellar that's singing "A-the-ism in the U.S.A." to the tune of "R.O.C.K in the U.S.A." by Camp John Cougarmellen?

Just wonderin'...
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Old 08-06-2014, 03:45 PM   #34
DanaC
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I've been singing it to the tune of Born in the USA
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:09 PM   #35
Griff
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I've been singing it to Anarchy in the UK.

Atheism for the USA! It's coming sometime and maybe...
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Old 08-06-2014, 08:19 PM   #36
infinite monkey
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I don't know nuttin'. I'm a fence sitter extraordinaire, and not proud of that fact. And I don't think having faith 'just in case' constitutes having any kind of faith at all...so that's not where I'm coming from.

BUT, I went to an outdoor big churchy concert tonight and it was a beautiful evening and the musicians and singers were fantabulous and kids were playing and people were be-boppin' along and it was very peaceful and yet very rockful and I needed that.

On the way home, just as I left, my radio station played Spirit in the Sky. That was one of the songs mom chose for her funeral and it was fitting.

So, real or not, I sometimes find comfort in the joy religion CAN bring, when it's not all about sinning and hellfire and 20 Hail Marys and ten Our Fathers.
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Old 08-06-2014, 11:13 PM   #37
sexobon
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
... But Christianity is protected in a way atheism (or indeed most other religions) is not.
Do you think that could change during your lifetime?

DEI GRATIA REGINA FIDEI DEFENSOR [By the grace of God, Queen, Defender of the Faith]

... Charles, Prince of Wales, the present heir apparent, expressed a preference to change the style and the spirit should he succeed to the throne as expected. He commented in 1994, "I personally would rather see [my future role] as Defender of Faith, not the Faith". ...
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:34 AM   #38
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"real or not, I sometimes find comfort in the joy religion CAN bring"

If every one, on both (any) side, could embrace this...
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Old 08-07-2014, 09:37 AM   #39
henry quirk
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"We have had a cooler than normal summer so far in MS."

Runnin' consistently in the mid 90s here.

Couple that with the still-lingering effects of heat exhaustion from a few years back and I'm one miserable Quirk.
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:49 PM   #40
DanaC
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I think it is time to revive this thread.

You know - when \i announced to anyone who would listen, about the age of 13 or 14 or so it was received with mostly muted disinterest, occasional mild interest and not much else. It wasn't a big deal. The only people who cared were Gran - because she was a devout Catholic, and Dad - because he knew it would break Gran's heart. Even then Gran treated it as teenage rebellion that I would grow out of and Dad just didn;t want me to say anything to Gran.

So, it's been a revelation to me just how difficult it is for some people to break away from their church - and how deeply indoctrinating some people's religious background is.

I know the situation is more fraught in the US where atheism is sometimes viewed with suspicion as a kind of anti-Americanism - but it also affects a lot of people in the UK too (Jehovas Witnesses are just as separatist and just as likely to shun apostate family members in the UK as in the US).

I'v been watching a lot of really interesting atheist youtubers - and have become a lot more aware of the levels of indoctrination at play in some of the more extreme sects of Christianity and the damage it can do to people and families - and it has also made me reassess some of my own assumptions of Christ as a primarily benevolent and loving figure and Christianity as a source of a great deal of good. Much of which stems from my own vaguely Christian schooling (childhood prayers and bible story colouring books etc).

Some of what I am seeing is quite concerning. We notice it when it comes from Islam, but when it's a fundamentalist Christian homeschooling their child to disbelieve science and accept that the first loyalty of anybody is to their Lord over and above any family member, or that women were created for the sexual pleasure of their husband, somehow that doesn't feel the same as the power of Allah and the misogyny of the Qu'ran.

I just watched a youtube video in which a Mom (clearly a loving mother) explains why she decided to home school her children. In this video she says at one point that the purpose of homeschooling is not to raise smarter kids (though she hopes that will be outcome) - the primary reason to homeschool is: 'the world is loud and it completely drowns out the voice of the Lord. It sidetracks, it distracts, it silences the spirit of the Lord [...] '

She lists various benefits, some of which I think any parent would relate to (not having evening conflicts over homework and being able to squeeze the entire school day into 8-2pm leaving more time for family things) but she then explains that her intention when planning out her school year and lessons is not that they master so many types of mathematical skills, or be able to memorise the constitution (though she hopes they will achieve that) - instead when she consults God for guidance and reassurance for the decision she has made, she ' kept hearing through the spirit that she was to 'help her children become disciples of Jesus Christ'

Watching the video I was struck by a number of things - 1st is that she is a deeply committed parent making huge sacrifices and engaging in really difficult stuff to do right by her children. 2nd is that she is setting her children up to face the world with a moral code derived from the writings of Iron Age men and most likely in ignorance of scientific facts.

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Last edited by DanaC; 04-16-2019 at 12:55 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 12:55 PM   #41
DanaC
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One of my favourite atheists on Youtube:

Theramin Trees was raised Jehovah's Witness and then broke away from the church.

He makes videos about indoctrination and rationality and targets both religious and political dogma. But he does them so beautifully




This is a 2 part essay 'Debunking Prophets'



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Last edited by DanaC; 04-16-2019 at 02:20 PM.
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Old 04-16-2019, 10:22 PM   #42
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DanaC
Watching the video I was struck by a number of things - 1st is that she is a deeply committed parent making huge sacrifices and engaging in really difficult stuff to do right by her children. 2nd is that she is setting her children up to face the world with a moral code derived from the writings of Iron Age men and most likely in ignorance of scientific facts.
We are tangential to some social circles where I am occasionally required to defend why I don't homeschool the kids. In my experience, the lack of evolutionary knowledge and misogynistic moral code are not actually the most pressing problems for homeschooled-for-church-reasons kids. It's the lack of socialization cues from people who don't love you as much as mommy does. Plenty of these parents never tell their kids that their jokes aren't funny, or that their armpits stink, or that they are just being annoying and need to stop talking now, and the benignly narcissistic self-image they develop is way harder to fix than a few knowledge gaps.
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Old 04-17-2019, 01:09 AM   #43
xoxoxoBruce
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Originally Posted by DanaC View Post
So, it's been a revelation to me just how difficult it is for some people to break away from their church - and how deeply indoctrinating some people's religious background is.
Their parents taught them the church was a solid sanctuary and comfort no matter what. Like any placebo, if you believe it then it works for you.

Now their kids are parents in a world were the news will give you the heebie-jeebies, and the technical changes leave you befuddled but suspicious. The only thing they have that's solidly unchanged is their stand byplacebo. So being loving parents they want to pass that to the kids.

Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc, are all fine in themselves. The problem is religion, like government, labor unions, or any organization, even an un-organization like Lord of the Flies island, are all susceptible to power grabs by
bad people for personal gain. To work properly everyone involved has to actually be involved and not passive to this constant danger.

The following was written by Diana Athill late in life. A smart broad.
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Old 04-17-2019, 08:58 AM   #44
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I don't believe in atheism.

Ya--ya see what it is that I did there?
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Old 04-17-2019, 09:31 AM   #45
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If the idea of God is just a representation of the sum total of all human potential through all time, the top of the hierarchy of values, and a word for the (mostly Darwinian) forces that guide us, that we cannot hope to completely understand, I believe in all of that.

It looks like everybody just made a human mistake and over-personified that concept, and now God is "Sky Daddy Who Controls Everything And Judges Us". If instead of that, God is everything above, then we are the judges all along, and what is Godlike is what best serves our potential.

We have doubled life expectancy, answered a lot of the problem of pain, managed to harness the creation of life, describe the physical rules that govern the world... from the perspective of someone 1000 years ago, WE are God. We answered our own prayers. We don't have the cures for all of our own ills -- after centuries of the Enlightenment, we are still extremely confused. (Which is very interesting!)

But we try to advance humanity's future. Even as we won't be there to experience it. That is service towards God, the representation of humanity over time.
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