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Old 09-29-2017, 11:01 AM   #16
xoxoxoBruce
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I agree, somebody who knows what they're doing, and sees the need, should prepare the plan and brief the POTUS for a decision and the OK.

We've been hearing bad things about these briefing sessions before, but I'd assumed they were just potshots at Trumps style. Maybe not?
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Old 09-29-2017, 12:53 PM   #17
Flint
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One side says the boat was sent early--in advance, the other side says the boat is sitting around collecting dust. And none of us are eye witnesses, none of us are in administrative positions to know which is true. Both sides could cite sources, but neither side will believe the sources provided by the other. The research necessary to confirm what we used to accept could be obtained from trustworthy sources, is prohibitive and inconclusive.

Information doesn't exist anymore.



Since the dawn of time, when we developed verbal, then written language, the printing press, the telegraph, magnetic disk, we've been building a civilization based on the exchange of information, as a reliable, actionable commodity. We had a good run, folks!
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Old 09-29-2017, 01:47 PM   #18
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Hey folks, there is current aerial imagery of Puerto Rico over at NOAA. See for yourself what the conditions are. You can click on the layers icon to see imagery from different days this week.

https://storms.ngs.noaa.gov/storms/m...18.056/-64.824

For example, you will see cargo jets on the tarmac in San Juan.
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Old 09-29-2017, 08:21 PM   #19
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First, it got clipped by Hurricane Irma, a huge Category 5 storm whose eye passed just north of the island. That storm — which had ravaged several Caribbean islands — left 1 million people without power on Puerto Rico. By the time Maria hit, 60,000 people were still without electricity. That means there are many people on the island who haven’t had power for 20 days (Irma passed by on September 7).
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Old 09-30-2017, 08:15 AM   #20
sexobon
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But, but ... that means people there can't recharge their survival smart phones. OH THE HUMANITY!


(Kudos to UT for the meme.)
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Old 09-30-2017, 09:51 AM   #21
tw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Flint View Post
One side says the boat was sent early--in advance, the other side says the boat is sitting around collecting dust. And none of us are eye witnesses, none of us are in administrative positions to know which is true. !
USNS Comfort is now at 35.307 N / 75.039 W which put it about 40 some kilometers off Hatteras Island NC. IOW it finally put to sea about 10 days after it was desperately needed. There is no mystery about this response for same reasons why there was no mystery about who screwed up recovery after Katrina.

Texas and Florida did not have this problem. Road were available so that many resources, that did not have to wait for presidential approval, were immediately deployed. Puerto Rico can only be accessed by plane or ship. Airports needed immediately military assistance to open. So only the National Guard could do anything useful. Ports needed many impediments such as the Jones Act removed immediately. It took Trump seven days to even do that.

Assistance in TX and FL did not need presidential approval. Assistance most desperately needed in Puerto Rico did.

No dispute. The USNS Comfort sat exactly where honest news sources said it was. Only propaganda outfits, masking as if news, would have lied about what has been deployed.

After Irma, a cruise ship Norwegian Sky was sent (don't know by who) to the Virgin Islands to evacuate stranded tourists. They did not need presidential approval. Cruise ships took to sea without passengers to hide out in Cozumel.

BTW, the US Navy base was Roosevelt Road on the mainland of Puerto Rico. Vieques was a separate base on a different island. Used by the Navy for calibrating guns before deployment. Roosevelt Road and its airfield had been closed as a military base maybe in 2004; is only a National Guard facility and a small plane airport. Without target practice on Vieques, it had no purpose and was closed.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:29 AM   #22
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Sounds like Puerto Rico is going to be more trouble than it's worth. We should gift it to Mexico.
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Old 09-30-2017, 10:30 AM   #23
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No wai, we should at least get a 2nd round draft pick in return
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Old 09-30-2017, 12:39 PM   #24
xoxoxoBruce
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Originally Posted by sexobon View Post
But, but ... that means people there can't recharge their survival smart phones. OH THE HUMANITY!
No matter, most of the cell towers were knocked out anyway, and if they weren't they may not have power. It also means you can't pump clean water or refrigerate food, and that's deadly for people who don't have your skills.
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Old 09-30-2017, 11:34 PM   #25
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The amphibious ships came first because there were no port facilities left. None. USNS Comfort requires a 900 foot pier plus some space, 100 feet wide and over 20 feet deep to dock. She is not capable of amphibious operations.

Now that a dock has been cleared and an ingress route safely mapped and open, she can sail. She stood down for two main reasons: one, there were no ports to receive her at the time and two, the governor of PR requested that she NOT be sent.

Imagine that. The President did what the Governor of PR asked of him.

And posse comitatus does not apply here. That law poscribes the Army and Air Force from being used in a law enforcement capacity. It technically does not poscribe the Navy or Marines from being so used, but each service has regulations with the same force. Posse comitatus does not apply to the Coast Guard. The President does not authorize their use either, it is the US Congress that must do so.

Here is the relevant section of that law.

Sec. 15. From and after the passage of this act it shall not be lawful to employ any part of the Army of the United States, as a posse comitatus, or otherwise, for the purpose of executing the laws, except in such cases and under such circumstances as such employment of said force may be expressly authorized by the Constitution or by act of Congress ; and no money appropriated by this act shall be used to pay any of the expenses incurred in the employment of any troops in violation of this section and any person willfully violating the provisions of this section shall be deemed guilty of a misdemeanor and on conviction thereof shall be punished by fine not exceeding ten thousand dollars or imprisonment not exceeding two years or by both such fine and imprisonment


Now, the military MAY INDEED be used after a natural disaster to restore public order and enforce laws.

Here is that section:

The President may employ the armed forces... to... restore public order and enforce the laws of the United States when, as a result of a natural disaster, epidemic, or other serious public health emergency, terrorist attack or incident, or other condition... the President determines that... domestic violence has occurred to such an extent that the constituted authorities of the State or possession are incapable of maintaining public order... or [to] suppress, in a State, any insurrection, domestic violence, unlawful combination, or conspiracy if such... a condition... so hinders the execution of the laws... that any part or class of its people is deprived of a right, privilege, immunity, or protection named in the Constitution and secured by law... or opposes or obstructs the execution of the laws of the United States or impedes the course of justice under those laws.


Sundance over at Conservative Treehouse wrote this up already and did a much better job than I did.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:09 AM   #26
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More at Bloomberg

Quote:
One side says the boat was sent early--in advance, the other side says the boat is sitting around collecting dust.
True fact: boat not sent early.

(Probably) True narrative: on purpose.

SO:

The true fact that the boat was not sent early was used to support the narrative that boat was not sent due to incompetence, or even evil.

The truth of the fact was used to support the believability of the narrative.

This happens over and over. We are only building and consuming the narratives we want. We publish these in the nation's great newspapers. This is a very dangerous time in history. It will lead to either war, or disco. Good luck to everyone.
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Old 10-01-2017, 09:55 AM   #27
tw
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pamela View Post
The amphibious ships came first because there were no port facilities left. None. USNS Comfort requires a 900 foot pier plus some space, 100 feet wide and over 20 feet deep to dock. She is not capable of amphibious operations.
Anyone can learn facts rather than be educated by talk show hosts and junk science propaganda. From Wikipedia:
Quote:
The USNS Comfort provides rapid, flexible, and mobile medical and surgical services to support Marine Corps Air/Ground Task Forces deployed ashore, Army and Air Force units deployed ashore, and naval amphibious task forces and battle forces afloat.
It is designed for military operations. That means amphibious - no dock required. It operates at sea during military operations. Even its flight decks support the largest military helicopters. Who created that obvious lie?

Extremists will say anything to pervert truth with fiction; to protect a president who makes Nixon's lies only look like fibs. Or is that news coming from covert Russian web sites?

Docks can be cleared in less than a day (not two weeks) by military amphibious forces. But docks were not trashed or destroyed. Only minor damage. No problem. Immediate clearing is what amphibious troops do.

Please stop reciting what extremist talk show hosts invent. Their audience are the gullible - not the honest or informed.

Need for amphibious ships was so desperately needed on day one that the USS Wasp was now deployed yesterday from Norfolk to assistant a task force that already includes USS Oak Hill and Kearsarge. Wasp is an aircraft carrier similar in design to the USS Bataan, Iwo Jima, and Kearsarge.

As Trump says, it is big ocean. That means these ships are easily and quickly deployed to disasters - but only if a president authorizes it. He did - six days too late. And only after Gen Buchanan was finally assigned - after Trump's many days of trashing of NFL players and coaches.

Also desperately needed were communication facilities. US military had them ready to go on day one. But satellite communication equipment was only recently deployed - after the president finally let the military deploy. One C-17 finally delivered communication - the 63rd Signal Battalion from George ... on 27 September. Finally began operations on 28 Sept - 8 days after the hurricane.

From the Chicago Tribune entitled "How Trump's weekend at N.J. golf club slowed response to Puerto Rico crisis" on 29 Sept:
Quote:
Trump did hold a meeting at his golf club that Friday [22 Sept] with half a dozen Cabinet officials — including Acting Homeland Security Secretary Elaine Duke, who oversees disaster response - but the gathering was held to discuss his new refugee travel ban, not the hurricane. Duke and Trump spoke briefly about Puerto Rico, but did not talk again until Tuesday, an administration official said.
Administration officials admit that.

Ignored is what Gen Honore noted. All that stuff could have been deployed on day one. "His (Buchanan's) headquarters exists 365 days a year, just for this mission." But no military commander was authorized for six day. Gen Buchanan got his authorization six days too late.

An obviously dumb president, from his Bedminister County Club, is criticizing Puerto Ricans of not doing enough to help themselves. At what point does this not become obvious. 85% of all problems are direct traceable to top management.

Pamela denies all this. It says so much about what has happened to America. Some are so entrenched in 'talk show reality' as to deny even what is obvious. USNS Comfort is designed for amphibious operations. It does not need a 900 foot dock. Please be informed enough to see through so many obvious 'talk show host' lies.

The president did nothing for six day. Now blames Puerto Ricans for not doing enough for themselves? Even Nixon did not lie this obvious and oblivious. USNS Comfort does not need a dock. But its needed a president to authorize assistance. This one is as dumb as George Jr. Lies more than Nixon. Reality is difficult when extremist talk shows say something completely different.

Last edited by tw; 10-01-2017 at 10:02 AM.
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Old 10-01-2017, 10:33 AM   #28
xoxoxoBruce
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I figure Captain Jerry Hendrix, at UT's link, knows more about this shit than we do. Both what has/is going on, and what should have/be happening.

Don't trust the media because they have an axe to grind? If that's true, how are bloggers with an obvious axe to grind to be trusted?

[Rick Nelson] You can't trust anyone, so you've got to trust yourself. [/Rick Nelson]
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Old 10-01-2017, 11:24 AM   #29
sexobon
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Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
... The true fact that the boat was not sent early was used to support the narrative that boat was not sent due to incompetence, or even evil.

The truth of the fact was used to support the believability of the narrative. ...
That's how propagandists work. That's why it's called propaganda and not just lies. That's why the credibility of a source can be low even though it can cite facts. Their facts are cherry-picked to support a predetermined outcome around which the narrative is based. You won't find obvious lies. You have to look for the lies of omission or else you'll be misled. Some people learn how to structure propaganda early in life. They've had someone to learn it from and use it regularly thereafter. If they repeat it often enough, they may even come to believe themselves. That's when they start to think that they're always right - Oh, what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive!
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Old 10-02-2017, 11:32 AM   #30
Flint
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Undertoad View Post
This happens over and over. We are only building and consuming the narratives we want. We publish these in the nation's great newspapers. This is a very dangerous time in history. It will lead to either war, or disco. Good luck to everyone.
I agree 100%. I see it happen all the time.

I see this method being used by people I don't agree with, to promote things I believe are harmful for society. And when I see the people whom I agree with use the same method to promote things that I believe are beneficial to society I recognize that as the same problem.

When I see Trump decrying "Fake News" I know that there is a kernel of truth people can identify with --the facts aren't fake, the narratives may not even be fake, they're just not news. He should call it "Not News" but of course he'd have to pay royalties to Undertoad.

It's easy to make a bunch of grand-standing monologues about what's wrong with society--generally "the ignorant masses" or a "failure of the education system" or "being manipulated by Koch Brothers/Soros"--but it's all of us, participating in this new system of information distribution and not knowing how to use it ethically or to promote healthy goals--because changes in technology are happening so fast.

It's easy to say if we could just slow things down and listen to the distress signals from the nerds and intellectuals, we could concentrate more on substance, less on packaging, and make more thoughtful decisions. But that's never really going to happen, is it?

They said this about newspapers, they said this about television, but aren't AI-driven algorithms that have database access to every detail of every person's life--and use it to target us on personal devices--something different than just a new media format?
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There's a level of facility that everyone needs to accomplish, and from there
it's a matter of deciding for yourself how important ultra-facility is to your
expression. ... I found, like Joseph Campbell said, if you just follow whatever
gives you a little joy or excitement or awe, then you're on the right track.

. . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . Terry Bozzio

Last edited by Flint; 10-02-2017 at 11:40 AM.
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