Men Abortion and Choice

08-07-2007, 03:59 PM

From another site... My post on another thread. Thought it would start a nice conversation.

Quote:

Originally Posted by D****

...according to proposed legislation in Ohio:

Abortion law would give fathers a say State legislators propose change; opponents blast bill as 'extreme'

Mike Hixenbaugh
July 30, 2007
Record-Courier staff writer

Quote:

Several Ohio state representatives who normally take an anti-abortion stance are now pushing pro-choice legislation - sort of.

Led by Rep. John Adams, a group of state legislators have submitted a bill that would give fathers of unborn children a final say in whether or not an abortion can take place.

It's a measure that, supporters say, would finally give fathers a choice.

"This is important because there are always two parents and fathers should have a say in the birth or the destruction of that child," said Adams, a Republican from Sidney. "I didn't bring it up to draw attention to myself or to be controversial. In most cases, when a child is born the father has financial responsibility for that child, so he should have a say."

As written, the bill would ban women from seeking an abortion without written consent from the father of the fetus. In cases where the identity of the father is unknown, women would be required to submit a list of possible fathers. The physician would be forced to conduct a paternity test from the provided list and then seek paternal permission to abort.

Source

If two people have sex and know how babies are made and know that no contraception is perfect they choose to risk getting pregnant, if they do it is a choice. They chose that risk and therefore chose the result.
If the male states that he wishes to choose full custody of the child that should be his right.
It is his child as much as hers.
The woman made a choice, one she made with someone else, knowing FULLY what her role would be before-hand... she need only fulfill her role as far as the birth is concerned, as far as she chose when she took the initial risk.

Bullitt · 08-07-2007, 04:01 PM

I fully agree with everything you just said. People need to realize that every action has a consequence, and you should not partake in something if you are not willing to accept all the possible outcomes. Getting pregnant is not out of control.

"Summit County is also near the top of the list with a 21 percent termination rate."
We're so proud.

bluecuracao · 08-07-2007, 05:01 PM

A woman can get pregnant even if both she and her male partner use birth control. Didn't you guys know that?

One of the consequences of the choice to have sex is that the woman may choose to abort her pregnancy. The reason why this is so, is because forcing women to stay pregnant would violate the 14th Amendment of the Constitution.

This ridiculous proposed legislation will be tossed out sooner or later. Maybe they can bring it up again, when we figure out how to implant an embryo into a man.

DanaC · 08-07-2007, 05:11 PM

So, any woman who's old enough and with the mental capacity to understand that sex can and does lead to pregnancy, even if protection is used, loses the final say over whether she has to carry any baby to term? Simply because she chose to have sex with a man, he gets to make decisions about what she does with her body?

Damn, man and you call Britain fascist. You want to allow men the right to dictate what a woman does with her body? Force her to undergo a process which often carries enormous health risks, even in these modern times. Oh great so, as long as the man's willing to raise the baby with no input from her, she loses the right to refuse to undergo 9 months of pregnancy and the labour that follows.

I would never want to live in a country with a law like that.

Bullitt · 08-07-2007, 05:38 PM

The baby is as much the man's as it is the woman's. It takes two to tango. If there was consensual sex, and she has a brain in her head, she knows what could very well happen and accepts that possibility.
Abortion because you just don't want it is selfish and only serves as a way to further irresponsibility.

DanaC · 08-07-2007, 05:40 PM

By that argument, no woman should be allowed an abortion without male permission. With the greatest of respect my friend, Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, if you think you get to make those choices for another sentient human.

How're you going to make sure she carries it to term, chain her to the bed?

bluecuracao · 08-07-2007, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt

The baby is as much the man's as it is the woman's.

Only after it's born. While it's connected to a woman's body, she's the only one who has the right to say whether it will become an actual baby or not. Damn right it's selfish--do you want someone else making medical decisions for you?

Happy Monkey · 08-07-2007, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rkzenrage

If the male states that he wishes to choose full custody of the child that should be his right.

You can't have full custody of something in someone else's body. If he had a way to take custody without invasive surgery, then maybe the law could treat both parents equally. But until we can develop technology to compensate, the sexes are not the same, and can't be treated equally. The one whose body is involved gets final say.

Bullitt · 08-07-2007, 06:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

By that argument, no woman should be allowed an abortion without male permission. With the greatest of respect my friend, Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, if you think you get to make those choices for another sentient human.

How're you going to make sure she carries it to term, chain her to the bed?

It's just my personal opinion. For the record I am against legislation that says what you can and can't do with your body (marijuana laws, abortion laws, etc.). It is just my personal opinion that people need to be more accountable for their actions and willing to accept the consequences of them. This goes for all the deadbeat dads out there too who skip town when the girl says she's pregnant. I see the 'I just don't want it' abortions as hypocritical. I would be willing to bet that they would support punishing someone who murdered a pregnant woman for killing her and the baby, yet have no problem with aborting a child of their own.
I guess this all stems from my belief that abortion really is killing a human being and unless it is for the safety of the mother or rape, it shouldn't be done. The child is just as dependent on the mother inside as it is outside the womb. I don't see how physically disconnecting the umbilical cord changes that and suddenly it's a real child with rights, etc. It's like how you can get arrested for underage drinking the night before your 21st birthday.. what changes?

DanaC · 08-07-2007, 06:50 PM

Having an abortion is not being unaccountable for your actions. Having an abortion is a scary thing that some women choose to do for their own reasons. You want to be allowed to have a say over what happens to any foetus springing from your sperm, don't put it inside a woman who hasn't said she wants your baby.

Happy Monkey · 08-07-2007, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bullitt

It's just my personal opinion. For the record I am against legislation that says what you can and can't do with your body (marijuana laws, abortion laws, etc.).

Then we are in agreement. A woman should (in most cases) take into account the views and desires of the father when she makes her decision. But "take into account" is not "defer to", and "should" is not "must", and the final decision remains hers.

Bullitt · 08-07-2007, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Happy Monkey

Then we are in agreement. A woman should (in most cases) take into account the views and desires of the father when she makes her decision. But "take into account" is not "defer to", and "should" is not "must", and the final decision remains hers.

I can see that. I guess it really is a case by case kind of thing. If the dad doesn't have a clue what the hell he is talking about, would make a terrible father then him having such a final say would be an incredibly bad thing.

Bullitt · 08-07-2007, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

Having an abortion is not being unaccountable for your actions. Having an abortion is a scary thing that some women choose to do for their own reasons. You want to be allowed to have a say over what happens to any foetus springing from your sperm, don't put it inside a woman who hasn't said she wants your baby.

In my mind, consenting to sex is saying just that. That your desire for sexual pleasure outweighs the potential "side effects" and that you are willing to take the risk.

DanaC · 08-07-2007, 07:03 PM

That's right and sometimes the consequences of that act are not pleaasant. A woman having an abortion is facing up to the consequences of her actions.

Also, men and women have sex for a myriad of reasons. It's one of the most basic human drives we have. When a man chooses to have sex he risks losing control of his sperm, a woman risks being impregnated when she doesnt want to be. Both risk sexually transmitted disease given that condoms can break. Sex is risky.

Bullitt · 08-07-2007, 07:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanaC

That's right and sometimes the consequences of that act are not pleaasant. A woman having an abortion is facing up to the consequences of her actions.
. . . Sex is risky.

Well I guess that's where we differ. My idea of owning up is having the baby, yours is doing exclusively what is in the best interest of the mother.

08-07-2007, 04:01 PM	#2
Bullitt This is a fully functional babe lair Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,324	I fully agree with everything you just said. People need to realize that every action has a consequence, and you should not partake in something if you are not willing to accept all the possible outcomes. Getting pregnant is not out of control. "Summit County is also near the top of the list with a 21 percent termination rate." We're so proud. __________________ Kiss my white Irish ass. Last edited by Bullitt; 08-07-2007 at 04:08 PM.

08-07-2007, 05:38 PM	#5
Bullitt This is a fully functional babe lair Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Akron, OH Posts: 2,324	The baby is as much the man's as it is the woman's. It takes two to tango. If there was consensual sex, and she has a brain in her head, she knows what could very well happen and accepts that possibility. Abortion because you just don't want it is selfish and only serves as a way to further irresponsibility. __________________ Kiss my white Irish ass.

08-07-2007, 05:01 PM	#3
bluecuracao in a mood, not cupcake Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Philadelphia Posts: 3,034	A woman can get pregnant even if both she and her male partner use birth control. Didn't you guys know that? One of the consequences of the choice to have sex is that the woman may choose to abort her pregnancy. The reason why this is so, is because forcing women to stay pregnant would violate the 14th Amendment of the Constitution. This ridiculous proposed legislation will be tossed out sooner or later. Maybe they can bring it up again, when we figure out how to implant an embryo into a man.

08-07-2007, 05:11 PM	#4
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	So, any woman who's old enough and with the mental capacity to understand that sex can and does lead to pregnancy, even if protection is used, loses the final say over whether she has to carry any baby to term? Simply because she chose to have sex with a man, he gets to make decisions about what she does with her body? Damn, man and you call Britain fascist. You want to allow men the right to dictate what a woman does with her body? Force her to undergo a process which often carries enormous health risks, even in these modern times. Oh great so, as long as the man's willing to raise the baby with no input from her, she loses the right to refuse to undergo 9 months of pregnancy and the labour that follows. I would never want to live in a country with a law like that.

08-07-2007, 05:40 PM	#6
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	By that argument, no woman should be allowed an abortion without male permission. With the greatest of respect my friend, Fuck you and the horse you rode in on, if you think you get to make those choices for another sentient human. How're you going to make sure she carries it to term, chain her to the bed?

08-07-2007, 06:50 PM	#10
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	Having an abortion is not being unaccountable for your actions. Having an abortion is a scary thing that some women choose to do for their own reasons. You want to be allowed to have a say over what happens to any foetus springing from your sperm, don't put it inside a woman who hasn't said she wants your baby.

08-07-2007, 07:03 PM	#14
DanaC We have to go back, Kate! Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Yorkshire Posts: 25,964	That's right and sometimes the consequences of that act are not pleaasant. A woman having an abortion is facing up to the consequences of her actions. Also, men and women have sex for a myriad of reasons. It's one of the most basic human drives we have. When a man chooses to have sex he risks losing control of his sperm, a woman risks being impregnated when she doesnt want to be. Both risk sexually transmitted disease given that condoms can break. Sex is risky.

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