Obama: "I'm ready to negotiate with you, Iran." Iran: "Fuck you." - Page 2

dmg1969 · 02-11-2009, 11:26 AM

I just love the irony of our free society. M.A. calls America The Great Satan (and Israel, The Little Stan) and calls for the destruction of both. Yet, we spend our taxpayer dollars to protect his scrawny, Member's Only wearing ass when he's here to attend U.N. functions. The funny thing is that most Iranians don't know about that. Let some nut take a shot at him or kill him while he's here though......

And, as for trying Bush for war crimes? Sure...right after you remove the sitting Treasury Secretary for not paying taxes and charging Tom Daschle. Oh wait...they're Dems, so that's OK.

sugarpop · 02-11-2009, 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmg1969

I just love the irony of our free society. M.A. calls America The Great Satan (and Israel, The Little Stan) and calls for the destruction of both. Yet, we spend our taxpayer dollars to protect his scrawny, Member's Only wearing ass when he's here to attend U.N. functions. The funny thing is that most Iranians don't know about that. Let some nut take a shot at him or kill him while he's here though......

And, as for trying Bush for war crimes? Sure...right after you remove the sitting Treasury Secretary for not paying taxes and charging Tom Daschle. Oh wait...they're Dems, so that's OK.

You are comparing not paying taxes to WAR CRIMES? WOW. Glad to see you have some perspective.

dmg1969 · 02-11-2009, 12:07 PM

No, I am not comparing the two. And, that would be WAR CRIMES (in your skewed opinion). I just thought I would use the most recent examples of Dems getting a pass on their own wrong-doing. It just so happens that no matter what a Democrat seems to do...fellow Dems in power (and the Dem voters) give them a pass. Didn't pay your taxes? Well, you said you're sorry...it was an oversight, so all is well. It's disgusting. Marion Barry ring a bell?

Undertoad · 02-11-2009, 12:11 PM

Let us compare actual, prosecutable crimes to Bush-hater's fantasy crimes and see what comes of it. Sug, which *particular* war crime would you start with, and in which court?

sugarpop · 02-11-2009, 12:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Undertoad

Let us compare actual, prosecutable crimes to Bush-hater's fantasy crimes and see what comes of it. Sug, which *particular* war crime would you start with, and in which court?

Bush and Cheney have both admitted in interviews that they authorized waterboarding, which is defined as torture in the Geneva Conventions, which we helped put into place, and we have always agreed to until bush was in office. WE have tried and prosecuted people for waterboarding. Plus, we used other forms of torture as well.

So, I believe they should be tried in an International Court, by International Standards. If the international community decides to let them go, then so be it. But I do not believe we can just turn our backs on standards that we helped put in place, and that the international community has agreed to, for years, simply because we want to or because we all of a sudden decide, on our own, that what we do isn't torture, or that we are somehow above the law.

sugarpop · 02-11-2009, 12:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dmg1969

No, I am not comparing the two. And, that would be WAR CRIMES (in your skewed opinion). I just thought I would use the most recent examples of Dems getting a pass on their own wrong-doing. It just so happens that no matter what a Democrat seems to do...fellow Dems in power (and the Dem voters) give them a pass. Didn't pay your taxes? Well, you said you're sorry...it was an oversight, so all is well. It's disgusting. Marion Barry ring a bell?

OK. I do not know much about TGs case, so I can't really comment on that with any honesty, but in the case of TD, I do believe he made an honest mistake, and once he realized it, he corrected that mistake. Hell, I didn't pay my taxes once for several years. I knew I owed th money but I just didn't have it. I talked to the IRS periodically about it. I did eventually pay it, along with the interest and penalties. Does that make me a cheat?

lookout123 · 02-11-2009, 12:30 PM

Quote:

I believe they should be tried in an International Court, by International Standards.

screw that. The leaders of the US would be foolish to ever allow International Courts the power to rule over the people who are elected to lead our nation.

sugarpop · 02-11-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lookout123

screw that. The leaders of the US would be foolish to ever allow International Courts the power to rule over the people who are elected to lead our nation.

When they break International Law, they should be held accountable in an International Court.

lookout123 · 02-11-2009, 12:34 PM

When the international community can survive without the US they can start dictating what we can and cannot do. Our leaders are only accountable to us. The constitution is the rule book, the courts are the place to handle it, and the people are ultimately responsible for the leadership we have.

Undertoad · 02-11-2009, 01:14 PM

Quote:

Bush and Cheney have both admitted in interviews that they authorized waterboarding, which is defined as torture in the Geneva Conventions

The people that were waterboarded were not prisoners of war in any of the numerous ways defined by Geneva, and so, Geneva doesn't apply.

sugarpop · 02-11-2009, 02:06 PM

Those laws are there for a reason. They are to protect OUR SOLDIERS as much as to protect people in our custody. If the shoe were on the other foot, you guys would be screaming bloody murder. You are using a double standard. If we are going condone torture by our government, regardless of whether the prisoners are POWs as defined by the Geneva Conventions or not, then we can't expect anyone to take us seriously when our guys are tortured, and we want justice for them.

lookout123 · 02-11-2009, 02:14 PM

you don't honestly believe our POW's have been handled according to the Geneva Conventions do you?

Undertoad · 02-11-2009, 02:18 PM

If you want to prosecute someone, you go by the law, not what you hope might be the law.

Do you want to try again?

sugarpop · 02-11-2009, 02:36 PM

We cannot have a double standard simply because it's convenient.

If we refuse to abide by laws that we helped write, then we can't expect anyone else to treat us with any kind of respect.

Torture is NOT an acceptable way to treat people, I don't give a shit who they are or bad they are. It doesn't work anyway. It never has.

Undertoad · 02-11-2009, 02:53 PM

Did we help write the part that designates who a prisoner of war is?

You can't have a double standard - ignore the section of the law you don't want to apply - simply because it's convenient.

This isn't about torture, it's about law.

02-11-2009, 11:26 AM	#16
dmg1969 I got nothing Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 486	I just love the irony of our free society. M.A. calls America The Great Satan (and Israel, The Little Stan) and calls for the destruction of both. Yet, we spend our taxpayer dollars to protect his scrawny, Member's Only wearing ass when he's here to attend U.N. functions. The funny thing is that most Iranians don't know about that. Let some nut take a shot at him or kill him while he's here though...... And, as for trying Bush for war crimes? Sure...right after you remove the sitting Treasury Secretary for not paying taxes and charging Tom Daschle. Oh wait...they're Dems, so that's OK. __________________ Void where prohibited. Your results may vary. Not intended for resale. Do not remove tag. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

02-11-2009, 12:07 PM	#18
dmg1969 I got nothing Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Central PA Posts: 486	No, I am not comparing the two. And, that would be WAR CRIMES (in your skewed opinion). I just thought I would use the most recent examples of Dems getting a pass on their own wrong-doing. It just so happens that no matter what a Democrat seems to do...fellow Dems in power (and the Dem voters) give them a pass. Didn't pay your taxes? Well, you said you're sorry...it was an oversight, so all is well. It's disgusting. Marion Barry ring a bell? __________________ Void where prohibited. Your results may vary. Not intended for resale. Do not remove tag. Objects in mirror are closer than they appear.

02-11-2009, 12:34 PM	#24
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	When the international community can survive without the US they can start dictating what we can and cannot do. Our leaders are only accountable to us. The constitution is the rule book, the courts are the place to handle it, and the people are ultimately responsible for the leadership we have. __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

02-11-2009, 02:14 PM	#27
lookout123 changed his status to single Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Right behind you. No, the other side. Posts: 10,308	you don't honestly believe our POW's have been handled according to the Geneva Conventions do you? __________________ Getting knocked down is no sin, it's not getting back up that's the sin

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02-11-2009, 12:11 PM	#19
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Let us compare actual, prosecutable crimes to Bush-hater's fantasy crimes and see what comes of it. Sug, which particular war crime would you start with, and in which court?

02-11-2009, 02:06 PM	#26
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	Those laws are there for a reason. They are to protect OUR SOLDIERS as much as to protect people in our custody. If the shoe were on the other foot, you guys would be screaming bloody murder. You are using a double standard. If we are going condone torture by our government, regardless of whether the prisoners are POWs as defined by the Geneva Conventions or not, then we can't expect anyone to take us seriously when our guys are tortured, and we want justice for them.

02-11-2009, 02:18 PM	#28
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	If you want to prosecute someone, you go by the law, not what you hope might be the law. Do you want to try again?

02-11-2009, 02:36 PM	#29
sugarpop Professor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: the edge of the abyss Posts: 1,947	We cannot have a double standard simply because it's convenient. If we refuse to abide by laws that we helped write, then we can't expect anyone else to treat us with any kind of respect. Torture is NOT an acceptable way to treat people, I don't give a shit who they are or bad they are. It doesn't work anyway. It never has.

02-11-2009, 02:53 PM	#30
Undertoad Radical Centrist Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: Cottage of Prussia Posts: 31,423	Did we help write the part that designates who a prisoner of war is? You can't have a double standard - ignore the section of the law you don't want to apply - simply because it's convenient. This isn't about torture, it's about law.

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